Simon: My name is Simon Perry and I am here for the Packs’ People Oral History Project and here being Ryde on the Isle of Wight on today the 24th of June 2024 and I’m with …
Sheila: Sheila Burnett.
Simon: Now Sheila, can you tell me the year and your place of birth?
Sheila: Well that sounds absolutely dreadful because I was born in Rugby, Warwickshire in 1938.
Simon: Ok. And the name of your mum and dad.
Sheila: Well funnily enough, my mum pre marriage was a Smith, and she married a Smith, so I was always at the end of the alphabet with a very common surname, Smith.
Simon: And what did they do, your mum and dad?
Sheila: My father was in Control Gear Electronics in what was originally BTH, in Rugby, which was a place where 2000 odd people worked, and then it changed to AEI and then it changed again. As I say, he spent all his married life working there.
Simon: Electrical Engineering was that?
Sheila: Yes.
Simon: Ok.
Sheila: He was in Sales really.
Simon: Yes, ok. And what was early school life and growing up round there like?
Sheila: Well, when I started school, I can remember because my birthday is in October, being taken along to school the first day and there were three Classes. And the first one I wasn’t in, and that was a Nursery where they had little beds and they went to sleep every afternoon. Then I wasn’t in the next one, and then I found myself in the main School building, because I was the October birthday and of course we all went in at the same year, we didn’t go in at different times in the year. Very unfortunately I seemed to develop the whooping cough, the measles and everything else and the thing I really remember is going convalescing in Bournemouth for June 6th , ‘D Day.’ And I can remember all the soldiers around and suddenly they disappeared and I can remember my mum coming back in. She’d been out that evening, climbing in the window (laughs).
2 minutes 31 seconds
Simon: Why the window?
Sheila: They told me it was ‘D Day’ and all the soldiers had gone. I do remember that quite vividly.
Simon: Why was she climbing in the window?
Sheila: I don’t know why. We did have … when we were in this Boarding House, we did have a ground stairs bedroom I must admit, and I don’t know if she didn’t want the people in the Boarding House to know she’d been out that evening (laughs) I don’t know, but I’ve always remembered her climbing in the window. My Primary School, we had drinking chocolate given us. We had to take a can along and have drinking chocolate given us and we used to have the siren go off at midday, one day a week. That went on for ages actually. I can remember quite a bit about the War.
Simon: Air Raid warnings was it?
Sheila: Yes, but it was obviously after the War. I started Primary School that year that ‘D Day’ and ‘VE Day’ were and I can remember the street parties and everything. Obviously my Primary School I was there until 11 and we had boys and girls in the Class and I can remember as we got nearer the top age group, our ability was taken into consideration and we were sat boys down one side, girls down the other and you had to sit in your ability range.
4 minutes 15 seconds
Simon: Oh, within the Class.
Sheila: In the Class.
Simon: Ok.
Sheila: And I used to have to do the … add up the Register for the Teacher at the end of Term, and we had one poor girl in the Class that sat at the back, and I can remember being asked to help her do her arithmetic with matchsticks.
Simon: Why matchsticks and not pens and paper?
Sheila: I think she needed to see visually that you could actually count the bits.
Simon: Right.
Sheila: I often wonder what happened to her. Sport wise, it was the only time I did Athletics ‘cos we didn’t do that. We weren’t allowed to do that in a Girl’s Grammar School. The Headmistress didn’t think … thought it was a bit un lady like I think, and I actually ran for my Town and my County, the sprint.
Simon: So, you’ve always been … ‘cos you were saying earlier that you were teaching Sports later, so you’ve always been …
Sheila: Yes, and yet I never intended going through that as my career. It’s funny how life turns out.
Simon: How did that happen then?
Sheila: Well when I was in a Grammar School, in the Sixth Form, I was very interested in Science. I wanted to do Research, and I started off with ‘A’ Level subjects, Biology, Chemistry and I did have Maths thrown in, ‘A’ Level Maths and Physics, and during that first year in the Sixth Form, we had the Biology Teacher went off seriously ill and never returned, the Chemistry Teacher got the sack because she couldn’t keep discipline, so four of us were left with hardly any ‘A’ Levels. No Teacher to take us, and it meant either repeating a year and doing 3 years in the Sixth Form, and it was suggested that I went into PE by the Staff.
6 minutes 27 seconds
Simon: ‘Cos you’d shown abilities in that already.
Sheila: Yes, I mean I was in all the teams and everything. Some of the Teachers of course washed their hands on me as soon as they realised that I wasn’t being an academic. In those days you didn’t do work experience like taking a year out, so I just picked up on the whole lot of … basic ally we did a 2-year Physics Course. We were doing ‘O’ Levels in those days, so I did that with the ‘A’ Level students. I took an ‘O’ Level in it. I picked up ‘A’ Level Art and I think I did History. It was very, very limited in those days in the number of ‘O’ Levels you could take. Not like children have had over many years now, so …
Simon: It was the switching to doing the teaching that then brought you to the Island?
Sheila: Oh yes. But not through me. My husband was a Teacher.
Simon: Ok.
Sheila: And from when we married, it was basically wherever he went for a job, then they found out that I was a Teacher and PE has always been a subject where they’re always very pleased to take you on because when you’ve got a PE Teacher absent, who likes to go out and take PE? They don’t the Teachers.
8 minutes 6 seconds
Simon: On a day like this when it’s sunny I would have thought but not …
Sheila: I’d be alright yes, but a lot of the Staff wouldn’t want to do it. They’re not that orientated. So, that’s why I’ve always been very lucky. I haven’t looked for a job.
Simon: It’s found you.
Sheila: It’s found me.
Simon: Right. So, which year did you move to the Island then?
Sheila: 1977. We celebrated the Queen’s Jubilee in our village where we were on the Mainland, and then about 2 weeks later we moved down to the Isle of Wight, and that was my husband’s job.
Simon: And how was the Island in 1977?
Sheila: Very laid back indeed. My parents had retired to the Island and I can remember them saying, “On we tried to get such and such a carpet, and we’ve been with bare boards for so many months because you can’t set the Island on fire.”
Simon: What do you mean? Can’t get stuff done you mean?
Sheila: Yeah, because the time they tried to … wherever they’d chosen something when they’d been in the shop, “Oh we have to order that from the Mainland, and you know …” It was quite funny really.
Simon: Right, 3 or 4 weeks later.
Sheila: And then we noticed very, very much, that the holiday makers in the summer, a few coaches coming down after the summer with my husband saying, “OAPs and just look at them, it’s all the women getting off and there are very few men and if there are any men amongst them, they’re all short.”
Simon: Right. What’s the …?
Sheila: As if to say, age and health and everything.
Simon: Ok.
Sheila: You know, the widows (laughs). He always used to say that. But then you would notice from then on, the Island was terribly quiet.
10 minutes 3 seconds
Simon: After the summer.
Sheila: Very, very … pretty noticeable the amount of traffic, the drop, very much.
Simon: Much more than these days.
Sheila: Oh these days you don’t notice it at all.
Simon: ‘Cos it’s always busy (laughs).
Sheila: Always.
Simon: Yeah, so that’s rather than more or less people coming to the Island. It’s just the general traffic levels are high.
Sheila: Yeah, I mean obviously we do get holiday makers coming all the times and people with second homes and … because we have to push it back to the buses don’t we? Lack of buses, services. Therefore, everybody has to have a car because how do you get from one village to another or go to wherever you want? So, you have to have a car. That immediately puts more and more traffic on the road (laughs).
Simon: So, did you move to Ryde straight away?
Sheila: No. The house we wanted we had to wait for, so I was in Bonchurch for a few months, and then we moved to the Undercliff with the house we actually bought which was in St Lawrence Undercliff near the Glass Works, that was. I don’t know if they’re still there now. We lived there for quite a long time and then we moved to …
Simon: That’s a lovely part of the world, St Lawrence.
Sheila: Yes, Alverstone, but not actually in the village. We were out on the back of the hill, overlooking Sandown Airport, and we were there 20 years, and that was in the middle of nowhere really. We had land and we had horses and …
Simon: Sounds good. So, when did you first start noticing Elizabeth Pack’s or Pack and Culliford or probably …
12 minutes
Sheila: Well probably right from the very beginning because we did move around shopping. We didn’t just shop in Ventnor. We had the Dentist in Ventnor, we had the Hairdresser’s in Ventnor. We tended to go into Ryde quite a bit and of course as soon as we got to Alverstone, we’d do Ryde quite a lot. As I say, we went into Pack’s when it was next door to Fowler’s.
Simon: That’s the one where French Frank’s is now.
Sheila: That’s where French Frank’s is yes.
Simon: So, they had the whole of that building didn’t they?
Sheila: Yes, upstairs as well.
Simon: So did you explore the different floors?
Sheila: Yes, oh yes. And then of course they moved over the road and downstairs they had Day Wear, Knitwear …
Simon: In Cross Street.
Sheila: … and then upstairs they had a complete big Bridal Suite and then they had another area which was much more ‘dressy’, cocktail dresses etc, and then they had the Café which we used a lot (laughs).
Simon: So, do you remember your first time into … because it was Pack and Cullifords at that time.
Sheila: Not particularly, no. I know that if I wanted something ‘dressy’ I would obviously go there and of course I’d already met Molly and she was working in the other shop across the road, so I used to go in and see her …
Simon: That’s Molly Salmon is it?
Sheila: Molly Salmon, yeah. So, I used to go and have a chat with her and see what I needed because in those days where I was dancing with the Caledonian Society, if you went to certain of the do’s, you needed something quite ‘dressy.’ A lot of us used Packs (laughs).
14 minutes 6 seconds
Simon: Right. That was events on the Island, rather than on the Mainland.
Sheila: Yeah.
Simon: I was just thinking through that two people turning up with the same outfit to the same ‘do’, have you quite had that?
Sheila: We haven’t quite had that, no (laughs).
Simon: The Staff probably had a mental picture of ‘well those people are going to this event, so we won’t sell them the same thing.’
Sheila: I think ‘cos Molly we knew because of Scottish Dancing, so I think she sort of kept an eye on us all. She’d say, “I have got just the thing that would suit you” and go and find it and sort of say, “how about this?” (laughs).
Simon: I mean I think that’s one really interesting part of that shopping experience, is the people in the shop knowing you and knowing what would suit you which I can’t imagine that apart from maybe something like the Velvet Pig or somewhere it’s a small shop, they know the people that come in, but you can’t imagine that really in any other shopping.
Sheila: Well, nowadays there’s very little places to shop up on the Isle of Wight. I mean basically if you’re going to shop personally and you want to see things, it’s basically Supermarkets and then one or two little shops and stock wise, but yeah I do have one place I go to where she’ll say, “Oh, glad you’ve come in, you can go and try such and such on.”
Simon: Oh still you’re getting that.
Sheila: Yeah.
Simon: Oh that’s good. Right.
Sheila: She will get me to parade round in it (laughs).
Simon: (laughs). So, thinking back to … you don’t remember the first time which would be Pack and Cullifords I guess.
16 minutes
Sheila: No, that would be right back obviously probably when we first came on the Island ‘cos we did shop around. I mean like we used to go to Cowes for certain shops. We tended if we were wanting to buy a certain thing, we knew which Town we wanted to go to, and we weren’t limited by just shopping in one area.
Simon: So, walking through, what was on the ground floor of Pack and Cullifords? Is that where the Children’s Department was?
Sheila: Yes, they had some things, yes. I don’t honestly remember very much about that because my daughter obviously was too big for all that by then. I mean …
Simon: I guess you just whizzed through that part to get to the …
Sheila: Yes.
Simon: So, what was your destination floor and location then?
Sheila: Well, I’d start off on the ground floor and I might be looking at twin sets as we had in those days, …
Simon: So, that was accessories, that sort of stuff.
Sheila: Yes, and then obviously things like tops and skirts and things like that, jackets, and then I’d go upstairs because … not the one at French Frank’s but the other one, she had the big wide staircase and she would have a model half-way up the stairs wearing a summer outfit and it was nearly always a cocktail or a full evening dress. And then you’d get up to the top of there where you would then go into … I would always go through all the tops, all the dresses to see if there was anything I wanted.
Simon: And they were hanging on hangers? Or folded?
Sheila: Yes, basically on hangers, yes.
Simon: And presented in … I’m just trying to sort of think between what the shopping experience is like now and what it used to be like.
Sheila: Oh yes, I mean the Bridal Suite was in a big room off to the left when you got to the top of the stairs, and they were all in covers over them and whatever, although we had one or two on display, and then when you got to the top of the stairs, there would be the very posh hats and things like that. One or two outfits and then you’d go into the next piece and oh I think she had underwear as well, lingerie, and tops, blouses and things and evening dresses, short, long, whatever. And then you’d go on round, a couple of palm trees I seem to remember into the Café.
18 minutes 36 seconds
Simon: Oh The Coffee Bean is that?
Sheila: The Coffee Bean, that’s right. We nearly always ended up there on a Saturday morning for coffee.
Simon: And who would ‘we’ be?
Sheila: My husband.
Simon: Ok.
Sheila: And we would see one or two other people that we always knew that were in there, and obviously the people behind that served us, and they knew us.
Simon: Yeah, so it was quite a social hub.
Sheila: It was really in many ways, yes. Yes, I was always taken aback by there was one lady that served us coffee and she knew what the word ‘smidgen’ and I thought I hadn’t heard that for years, as my dad used to use the word ‘smidgen’ (laughs).
Simon: Right. Yeah, that was for the milk serving.
Sheila: Umm, yeah.
Simon: Right (laughs). Let’s have a think about and explore the social side of The Coffee Bean then, that we had heard that at different times, they had sort of things, models sort of going through wearing fur coats …
Sheila: Oh they did actually have models, I remember now, yes. Somebody would come along with an outfit on and look at us and whatever. I remember the first time I thought it was some posh lady (laughs) and I suddenly realised that yes, they were actually dressing up and yeah.
20 minutes 3 seconds
Simon: So, the equivalent of moving mannequins.
Sheila: Yeah, that’s right, yes (laughs).
Simon: And so would there be someone announcing what the outfit was or did or they just …?
Sheila: No, not when I was there, no. It was the lady dressed would come round and have a chat with you about the outfit and everything.
Simon: Oh, she would explain what she had on.
Sheila: Yes.
Simon: Ok, but only if you asked, ‘oh that’s interesting ..’
Sheila: Yeah.
Simon: Ok. That’s funny that first time you just thinking, what’s going on? (laughs).
Sheila: (laughs).
Simon: So, that’s quite a smart marketing move isn’t it?
Sheila: Yes, and we used to see of course Elizabeth Pack around a lot, and she always had time of day to stop and talk to you.
Simon: What was your impression of her?
Sheila: I was very taken with the fact that she was around and would talk to you and she might ask you what you were there for, not particularly so in other words she’s not pushing sales. And then she’d say. “Oh, you might like to look at such and such.” It was more that you asked her a question rather than pushing, which was very nice.
Simon: I guess that the process of you when you walked in the shop, how much … there’s a sort of almost a sixth sense of the people that worked there maybe had of knowing whether you just wanted to have a look by yourself or …
Sheila: I mean they might very well say, “Good morning” to you or whatever, but they wouldn’t come up immediately and ask you what you wanted, which left you to browse, but they were there if they saw you getting quite interested in looking at a certain group of things. They’d then come up and ask you if you hadn’t already spoken to them. You know, “Can I help you?” and so I would say it was very laid back, but always somebody there and you didn’t feel you were being harassed (laughs) in any way.
22 minutes 29 seconds
Simon: Right, assistance was at hand but not hassled, right. What we’ve heard is that people being referred to as either Miss X or Mrs X. There were no first names there.
Sheila: Umm, well I suppose the fact I knew Molly, because sometimes she was downstairs working and she’d see me when I go in and we’d always have a chat anyway, and then she knew I’d say what I’d come in for if there was any particular thing I’d come in for, and help me, and then sometimes she was up in the Dress Department, but I think they probably were addressed by their Miss or Mrs.
Simon: And would that be where you would go for, I can’t think for fancy clothes or it would be everyday clothes or it would be a mixture?
Sheila: Well you knew immediately that you would go there if you wanted something for a special occasion because Fowler’s by then had closed down and of course that had been quite a big store and that would have been what you’d call in the old days the real good store where you’ve got a bit of everything you know from materials and whatever as well as clothing and everything. We don’t sort of see those sorts of types of places anymore do we? Well not on the Island anyway. But you would go there anyway, Pack’s and all the stuff, some of the very well-known names of clothing in those days she would be stocking.
24 minutes 19 seconds
Simon: From Pack’s.
Sheila: From Pack’s yes.
Simon: I guess that’s another important part is the person who’s doing the buying having the eye of what their customers will want.
Sheila: Yes, and then she wouldn’t buy too many of anything, so yes, you get the different sizes of something, but there wouldn’t be a tremendous number of … I mean I can’t really remember ever seeing … probably blouses for example, there might be 3 or 4 of the same style because they were all different sizes, but obviously evening dresses she wouldn’t have done that. They’d all be very individual, so although she got the different sizes and different group of evening dresses within the size, but you’d be lucky if you found more than two looking anything like …(laughs).
Simon: So not like M&S where there’s endless racks of the same stuff.
Sheila: Oh no (laughs). Look at the Supermarkets (laughs) and the sort we have to put up with now, and M&S. The dress shop that I happen to use, happens to be at Busy Bee.
Simon: Right.
Sheila: As they’ve got a franchise there.
Simon: Right.
Sheila: Klass and Anna Rose.
Simon: So, the experience of shopping at Pack’s. If you’re using different types of shops, I guess you may notice that different experience, but if that’s how all of your shopping is, then that is just how it is. You don’t think, ‘oh this is an interesting experience’ it’s just you doing your stuff.
Sheila: Yes, I mean when you used to go to Southampton, particularly we used to go for a day over there to shop, and then there was the big stores there like Fowler’s but twice the size and things like that. And of course they’ve all gone basically.
26 minutes 30 seconds
Simon: How did the shops in Southampton compare with, at the same time compare with Pack and Cullifords?
Sheila: Very often I came back with nothing, which now leads me on to the next thing, my daughter’s wedding dress (laughs).
Simon: Definitely want to explore that, yeah.
Sheila: That was 1988, and we looked for the wedding dress. My daughter says, “You have it in your loft.”
Simon: This is her wanting your wedding dress?
Sheila: This is my daughter’s wedding dress in 1988.
Simon: Yeah.
Sheila: And it came from Pack’s because this is where I was saying we shop on the Mainland and probably came back with very little and found something on the Island. And this is exactly what happened to her. Off she went with her friend, “We must go to Southampton.” “No, we didn’t find anything.” “We’re going to Bournemouth.” “No, we didn’t really find anything.” Yes, there were dresses that were absolutely exorbitant price, but even then were they any better design as what she wanted. She couldn’t find anything. And she had refused to go to Pack’s. That was Island wasn’t it? And I had a little chat with Molly and we looked at some wedding dresses, unknown to my daughter. We looked at some wedding dresses and I said, “Oh, I do like that” and it was slightly off-white and it was very Edwardian. I said, “Oh I like that” so anyway I got my daughter to go with me and she looked at some other wedding dresses and Molly said, “Well I have got a couple of others but I don’t know whether you’d be interested” and brought this one out. “Oh, I like that” says my daughter, tries it on. “Oh, this is what I’m going to have.” (laughs).
28 minutes 33 seconds
Simon: Wow.
Sheila: So, obviously it went from there. What was so nice was, Mrs Pack got involved and in the end my daughter got everything from Pack’s, the veil, everything. Then it came to my outfit, ‘Mum’s outfit’ and Mrs Pack got involved here and I tried one dress on and what was so amazing, was it’s a very, very similar style as my going away dress when I got married, and so of course I was … Tried the two different sizes on and she said, “No” she said, “I’m going to put you in that, and of course she has her Dressmaker altering things which is absolutely wonderful. They altered the dress to fit me exactly how she wanted it, but in the process, as saying, “Well, do you like it like that?” she said, “Well how about wearing this sort of necklace, and these shoes and a hat” and provided me with everything. And “what do you think?” and I said, “Yes” so in the end I did buy a hat from there (laughs) and the shoes no, I got the shoes at …
30 minutes 4 seconds
Simon: You got shoes somewhere else did you say?
Sheila: Oh I’d already got them at home. They were heels obviously, and my jewellery I got, and it was a dress and coat actually and my daughter went for several fittings ‘cos obviously they say brides lose weight during the time (laughs) and she had to have her dress taken in. Mrs Pack comes along, this was about a week before again, to make sure she got a final fitting and everything’s ok. “Yes” she said, “And I quite like that” and we will deliver it the night before, so it was all beautifully ironed, everything absolutely superb and a little blue bow had been attached to the back of the dress, so she’d got something old, something new, she hadn’t got borrowed from Pack but she’d got blue so yes, she was very fortunate indeed. It was so lovely the way they looked after us and I can remember the wrapping of anything, not only a wedding dress but they put down a big sheet on the floor and it was all wrapped in that as well as tissues and everything. And everything was delivered to our house the evening before. We took the dress out and we couldn’t believe it. It was absolutely wonderful, just hung it up. And I was talking to a friend of mine whose daughter got married on the same day, and bought her dress somewhere on the Mainland, and they spent hours ironing it. She said, “How did you get on?” I said, “Pardon, [inaudible] Mrs Pack had done everything, but she had overseen it She had actually come along and made sure that my daughter had tried this, had tried that and had tried everything which was absolutely lovely. I don’t know whether you would get that service today.
32 minutes 18 seconds
Simon: Yeah. You saying the dress turning up the day before. That seems like a really close (laughs), but I guess if you knew them and they were reliable, you’re not concerned about will it turn up.
Sheila: Well yes, because this is it, I mean there was no way did I doubt. You know she had the conversation, Mrs Pack did with us and it was personally delivered. As I say, it was all there.
Simon: That means the whole experience from beginning to end sounds ideal.
Sheila: It was absolutely wonderful. I couldn’t have asked for anything better and I mean what was so amazing, when we had the alteration done, which of course mine had the most alterations done, it was almost as if well, that’s the service we offer you. There was hardly any … I mean cost wise I couldn’t get over it. It was so …
Simon: Reasonably priced.
Sheila: Very reasonably priced indeed.
Simon: Right.
Sheila: And it was almost a case of you know, nothing was too much trouble.
Simon: And that was reasonably priced for the wedding dress as well as your outfit.
Sheila: Yes.
Simon: Right. I’d just assumed there would be a high price tag coming with that.
Sheila: Well as I say, I did look for the dress and say … my daughter said, “Well it’s up in your loft” and I thought well it was in the other house but I don’t know and I got my grandson to go up there last night and he said, “Oh, you’ve got all these black bags up here” he said, so we had to open them to see in case it was in there, and he said, “I think you ought to have these out the loft” so the landing at the moment is covered in bags that have disintegrated (laughs).
34 minutes 5 seconds
Simon: Oh goodness.
Sheila: And things I never knew that I’d got up in the loft, so I’ve got another job now having looked for a wedding dress (laughs).
Simon: I’m sorry for having caused that disruption (laughs).
Sheila: You’ve done me a good service. Has to be done sometime (laughs).
Simon: But no wedding dress.
Sheila: No wedding dress.
Simon: So, it may be in the last house or …
Sheila: No it’s not. I know it did come to us eventually, when she was moving house, but like all families these days, you never get rid of your children, do you?
Simon: Right, stuff hangs around, yeah.
Sheila: They’re always back for some reason, and I know when she moved out of this one particular house, a lot of the furniture came and my garage and along part of the house had boxes of stuff, and I assume that’s when the wedding dress must have arrived. That was in the other house, and obviously it’s been got rid of since. I mean 1988 is a bit of a long time. I found in my wardrobe, I still have my outfit (laughs).
Simon: Really, upstairs.
Sheila: Yeah, I couldn’t believe it (laughs).
Simon: And is it looking as fine as you remembered it?
Sheila: Yes it does, yeah. I haven’t tried it on (laughs). And I’ve got two built in wardrobes and it was hiding in there in a cover. I haven’t realised quite why I’d still got it. I don’t know.
Simon: And what colour was it?
Sheila: Blue, ‘cos as I say, not a too vivid blue. It wasn’t a pale washed out blue.
36 minutes
Simon: Has that got an Elizabeth Pack’s label in it?
Sheila: Yes.
Simon: Because when they were doing the alterations they sewed something in and …
Sheila: Yeah, that was the one that I had to have altered.
Simon: No, that is great that making people feel … obviously a wedding is a very special day …
Sheila: Yes.
Simon: … so for people to have that experience from the start to the non-stressful delivery of the ironed garment.
Sheila: Absolutely. And as I say Mrs Pack was always around. She used to park her car under the veranda piece at the back and even though she was what I would call retirement age gone, she just was there every day.
Simon: And your impression of her was … ‘cos I think some of the Staff were sort of fearful is too strong … um a healthy form of respect for her, because I think she could be very precise in what she wanted.
Sheila: Absolutely. Yes.
Simon: Had a vision.
Sheila: Yes. But it was all done in a very sort of quiet genteel manner. The whole issue, everybody there. You know I can remember quite a few. There was one lady that nearly always served downstairs and I can remember the one that was most often in the Dress, but because Molly was there, you know she would take me under her wing which was very nice. Yes, as I say it was a shame when that closed down.
Simon: Did the people that you were in there regularly, did they get to know your name?
Sheila: Probably not. I don’t know.
Simon: May ‘cos you knew Molly so much.
Sheila: Molly obviously knew who I was because I saw her at dancing as well. I mean she was still … she then had a bad hip and she was still there working when she had a stick. I think she was suggesting that she was supposed to be having an op. I don’t know whether she ever did because everything sort of almost closed down. It was a great shame.
38 minutes 31 seconds
Simon: What were your thoughts over that time when Pack’s in Cross Street did close? What were your thoughts during that time of the shop?
Sheila: What when it went …?
Simon: When it was coming up to closing time and then closed.
Sheila: Well it was just sort of the way everything was going wasn’t it really? ‘Cos Fowler’s had gone ‘cos they had that fire didn’t they? I was trying desperately to think where was it they moved to? It was somewhere in Cross Street, while they were having the building redone and then they went back into where they … next door to Pack’s, where French Frank’s where it’s now Weatherspoon’s isn’t it?
Simon: Wasn’t that where the fire was?
Sheila: I think the fire was there actually.
Simon: Ok. And that’s how they got to build that building that’s now the Pub, whatever it’s called, the Weatherspoon’s. Maybe the other one moved to … there’s a Dabell … what was a Dabell shop …
Sheila: Oh yes.
Simon: … on the corner of a cross roads. I’ve got a vague feeling they might have gone there, but I’m not exactly sure.
Sheila: Yeah ‘cos the Dabell’s that I used to go in was the one in Shanklin and of course they had a Dabell’s in Newport which ended up more in carpets and … well they had two places in Newport didn’t they? ‘Cos they had the carpets and furniture which still goes under the name of Dabell’s apparently.
40 minutes
Simon: I think that might have closed down now, that one. I think it might have done.
Sheila: Yeah, well the shops still there selling stuff, but whether it’s still under the same ownership I’ve got no idea, and I tend not to go into Newport very much. But I know I used to shop in Dabell’s in Shanklin because the other one went, and as I say …
Simon: That was a Department Store.
Sheila: Yeah, because I have a Highland outfit and my tartan that I chose was from there.
Simon: Ok.
Sheila: So, I had a skirt made up from there, and that was the one in Shanklin.
Simon: So, as far as Pack’s in Cross Street, when that was coming up for shutting down, do you have any memories around that at all?
Sheila: Well I can just remember the fact going in when they were closing down as regards gradually the rooms closed down, and then eventually everything was just downstairs. The Café had gone as again you went up the back stairs or down the back stairs into the Café but I used to go up the main staircase because it was a good way of obviously looking at the clothes that were up there before I went into the Café. Yeah and gradually as I say it closed right down until they’d just got a few things downstairs.
Simon: So, that’s quite a strange from being the whole building to then being …I mean that building is substantial, but it must have felt quite odd going in there and seeing it shrinking down.
Sheila: Yeah, it was a great shame.
Simon: And did it just feel like that was the time for that thing, or …?
Sheila: Did it …I was just wondering some of the clothes they had in the very last instance downstairs, did Sowley do that?
Simon: Don’t know. You mean recently or when they were shutting down?
42 minutes 16 seconds
Sheila: That’s when they were shutting down, ‘cos a few things were bought when they’d already closed most of the building down ‘cos they’d have something on the stairs which blocked it off. And then there were some clothes that were renewed. In other words, season, for about … I don’t know if it was a couple of years. I know I did buy one item from there then but there was basically no choice and everything just went and I must admit I don’t think I went in the last few months.
Simon: What was the … was there much of a contrast from shopping previously to then going there when you went there the last time?
Sheila: I don’t really remember very much, you know sort of … I can’t even remember the year they actually closed down. You’ve got that haven’t you?
Simon: Probably somewhere in my head. I haven’t got it at my fingertips I’m afraid.
Sheila: (laughs). Well, they’ve been closed what 10 years or more now.
Simon: Yeah. I think it was 2012, that’s the figures in my head, I’m not sure if it’s right or not.
Sheila: Yeah I was trying to think when I last really bought … you know I got a couple of evening dresses in there and one or two other things, so it was something different each year for these other ‘do’s’ and then I’d have various tops and things from them, and then of course I’ve still got a summer top that I still wear that I got bought from there, and that’s still going strong (laughs). And that was one of the things you would find downstairs.
44 minutes 19 seconds
Simon: About The Coffee Bean and the social scene around that. That was literally Saturday morning was your meeting up point was it?
Sheila: Well yeah but we used to be there on a lot of Saturdays and funnily enough, the other week I bumped into somebody in Busy Bee in the Café and we looked at each other, “Oh my gosh” we hadn’t seen each other for years. She was the one that I used to meet in … well I didn’t meet her personally to sit with her or anything but we knew her because we met her through bridge actually because my husband and I had started playing bridge and she played bridge and she always used to meet her husband in there, so we’d say, “hello, how are you?” sort of thing. And then blow me, I went and knowing that you were coming, it was really strange. I saw her and I hadn’t seen her for ages, probably since Covid, and that’s when I said, “Now you can help me” I said, “’cos you used to go in there.” I said, “What was Molly’s surname?” Well obviously she must have been a local because she knew Molly’s maiden name and her surname, so I got that.
Simon: Right. You had the full history.
Sheila: Yeah, that’s quite interesting (laughs).
Simon: So, I wonder if you had not been thinking about the fact that we were going to get together. I mean the brain is an incredible thing isn’t it?
Sheila: Yes, absolutely.
Simon: So whether that being present in your mind, then made you … you might have been in rooms with her at other times but just not have that the front of your mind.
46 minutes 5 seconds
Sheila: Well, I knew that it was someone I could ring up and the Caledonian Society who’s been there as long as I have or longer, she would know who exactly and she’s local, born and bred. She would know exactly who I was talking about and I was going to ask her and blow me I bumped into this other lady.
Simon: Right. Did she have any stories from sort of the Pack …?
Sheila: Well, immediately The Coffee Bean.
Simon: Oh yeah.
Sheila: Seeing us there when she was with her husband and seeing us there on a very regular basis, and the fact that we always used to have a bit of a chat about bridge, ‘cos as I say, her husband didn’t play bridge, she did, and that was how we first knew her. She was saying about how she missed Pack’s and well it was a sort of a place in Ryde that you liked going to.
Simon: What was the food and fare like there then? What did they offer you in the Café?
Sheila: Well there’s be snacky type lunches, like a bit of salad, side salad and a quiche and you know that sort of thing, or something on toast. But we didn’t have that, we always went in just for a coffee mid-morning.
Simon: And a pastry or anything?
Sheila: We might have a scone yeah, or a pastry.
Simon: Did you know James who ran The Coffee Bean for a while?
Sheila: No, it was two women that we knew more than anything.
Simon: Do you remember their names?
Sheila: No, I can’t, no. I can see them to this day, ‘cos I used to have a refill of coffee and they’d come along and do that at the table.
48 minutes 8 seconds
Simon: Right. Included in the price.
Sheila: I don’t remember actually. Isn’t that funny that’s something I don’t remember.
Simon: Yeah, the delivery of scones was something he was talking about. About having different Suppliers or …
Sheila: I’m just wondering whether we actually had .. and we used to have tea cakes, toasted tea cakes. I think that was probably the one we had more of, as the toasted tea cakes.
Simon: How many people, how may tables were in The Coffee Bean?
Sheila: Well the room was like this, with a piece that went out because that piece that went out was built up where the back stairs went down, so there were two tables, a table in there and there was a table there and a table there and two little ones, and then you’d go off into the main piece.
Simon: The main building.
Sheila: The main part where the Café was.
Simon: Oh, it was quite substantial then.
Sheila: They had about three tables going that way and you’ve got another little piece, and then into the shop where the clothes were.
Simon: Right, so that sort of getting on for 10 tables then.
Sheila: Yes, and then they used to have a table … when you got the stairs there, they had the counter and then they used to have a table here with all the different cakes and things in under their domes, where you can obviously pick and choose what you wanted. I’ve got quite a picture memory actually. That’s how I do remember things.
Simon: James was saying about one time, one of the customers came in, ordered beans on toast, but then meticulously removed the beans from their sort of their shells and just left all of the … it just sounds incredibly detailed and hard to do. I’ve never thought of cutting a baked bean out of its shell (laughs). It always seems like just one thing, rather than something you separate. But these are the strange things we remember aren’t they?
50 minutes 19 seconds
Sheila: Yes, certain of the women that worked there in The Coffee Bean and we got to know them quite well. They more or less knew what we were going to have when we … and of course everybody paid in cash. Don’t ask me what the price of the coffee was, I can’t remember (laughs) but we all paid in cash.
Simon: It was good quality coffee was it?
Sheila: I don’t remember the prices of them.
Simon: Yeah, I’m just thinking about how much coffee in England has changed over the last 30 years.
Sheila: Well, you had coffee made with coffee beans when you went in Pack’s. I mean you didn’t have all these different varieties of coffees that we have now.
Simon: It was just poured out of the … what do they call it, percolated.
Sheila: Yes, and you didn’t have all these machines either. I mean things have drastically changed haven’t they? We didn’t have the hygiene either I suppose that we should have now. That’s something I’d notice very much as I cruise, and England is a very dirty place.
Simon: Oh, interesting.
Sheila: When you’ve been to other countries, the litter and also obviously on-board ship you go in certain Cafés and you sit down and look at the table and it’s filthy, you know, you sort of uugh.
52 minutes 4 seconds
Simon: Right, yeah. And it’s only by leaving England or the Island or wherever it is that you get to notice there’s a difference between these places.
Sheila: Well I mean I think I’ve been to quite a lot of countries in admittedly it’s only Europe, but there just doesn’t seem to be the litter around. I think that’s more noticeable than how you’re actually served in a Café or something. The countryside itself is cleaner than what we have. It doesn’t really matter where you go, I can’t think of a country that is the same as us (laughs). A great shame.
Simon: Is that something that’s happened over the last how many years do you think?
Sheila: Well, I’ve noticed it sort of since the start of cruising which goes back to about 1900. I’m trying to think when my first cruise was. About 1996, ’97. I mean I went to Norway. We went by car, took the car over and that was in the early 1990s and of course that place is beautifully clean, and I did even notice it then, you know how clean everywhere was.
Simon: One thought on this project is how much shopping has changed and you’ve covered that a few times. I’m just trying to think how would you explain … for example your grandson. How old is your grandson?
54 minutes 4 seconds
Sheila: My grandson would shop online.
Simon: How old is he?
Sheila: He doesn’t deal with cash at all.
Simon: And how old is he?
Sheila: He’s 30, in his early 30s. Doesn’t have cash.
Simon: And does he use plastic or on his phone or card?
Sheila: It’s plastic actually at the moment. Yeah I … we don’t see eye to eye. He Banks online, doesn’t have cash. I mean there might be the odd thing he buys in a shop but it’s not particularly …
Simon: It would be mostly online and stuff turns up at the door.
Sheila: Yeah.
Simon: And do you think that people who have that experience now, I mean what that gives is enormous choice.
Sheila: Well, when you look back at before this happened, like it is now, when we used to do mail delivery things, and then of course how to get rid of it if it didn’t fit. I can remember times trying it out and finding … yes I liked the look of it in the picture, but when it arrived it wasn’t what I thought it was, it didn’t fit me and I’d got to get rid of it.
Simon: Right.
55 minutes 36 seconds
Sheila: That really put the mockers on me doing anything online anyway because would it actually suit me, the clothing I’m looking at. I far prefer to try something on and see myself in it. I know you can have it all delivered. I’ve got a friend whose daughter will say, “Oh yes you were talking about you needed …” and she said to me, “you’d never believe it” she said, “this door went and there was this box with 5 different dresses in, choose a dress.” So, I said, “Oh well, that’s very nice.” I mean I would hate to shop like that. It’s not my scene. I like trying to keep all the old places open. And on the Isle of Wight, we do get certain places that really just want cash. Yes, you’re going to get places that don’t want cash or won’t deal with cash, but … and I think what helped everybody along of course was Covid.
Simon: Right, to do online shopping.
Sheila: To do online shopping, no cash, so I just hope that in my day and age they don’t have a cashless society (laughs). I mean one of the hard things, at my age we go to lots of little Clubs and things. Well, they’re not going to pay out for a machine to take a card. They want cash. And that leads you on to the Banks then doesn’t ?
Simon: What do you think the advantage of the cash is over the card then?
Sheila: Well, when I think for when you go to all these Clubs where if they’re organising a Club, they’ve got to pay out to have the machine for you to use your card. Well, they may not be that type of Club that’s profitable enough to do that, so we’ve got to have cash.
Simon: It is something about the … having what you can spend in front of you as well?
57 minutes 53 seconds
Sheila: That’s one of the good things. The thing that I … these contactless cards, very good if you haven’t got the fingers to do all the numbers. Very good if you want to be quick. What happens when you drop your card and you don’t realise you have. Somebody else finds it. I mean I was behind somebody in a Supermarket and they hadn’t realised they’d dropped their card, and it was a contactless one. I have had a card hacked in to in the last year. Wasn’t a contactless one and when I went to the Bank because it wasn’t being … whereas I’d tried to use it and I couldn’t, so I went to the Bank. We still had it in Ryde at the time, and she came back with two A4 pieces of paper with all the times my card had been used.
Simon: Wow!
Sheila: Not worked, not available, not available, not .. it had the first 6 times, and then the Bank had picked it up and cancelled, so I lost 6 pence.
Simon: Right.
Sheila Apparently that’s what they do. They try it don’t they, just for a penny or something, which I didn’t know.
Simon: Right.
Sheila: The actual … it had been hacked into in a big Insurance Company and they contacted me and dealt with me personally. All the places I needed I owed money. I had my car tax going out and I had … I’d just come back from holiday, that hadn’t cleared of course, ‘cos it happened to be all that day. They were wonderful with me. They actually said we’ll wait until you get your new card. You know there was no hassle which was lovely, but the firm where I had been hacked in to, they gave me compensation, so I lost 6 pence and gained a few hundred, which was lovely.
60 minutes
Simon: Yeah. I guess if you had lost that cash, you wouldn’t have had that, so there are sorts of pros and cons with cash and …
Sheila: Yes, I mean I do use my card quite a lot.
Simon: So, apart from the card, if you had to summarise the differences to somebody who was a younger person. What’s been lost and what’s been gained I guess is one way of thinking about it.
Sheila: Well I think what we lost is being able to actually account for the amount of money you’re spending ‘cos you’ve either got it of you haven’t if it’s cash. But then again the gain side of it is you haven’t got to think about going and getting, drawing money out from somewhere where the Banks have all disappearing. As long as you know where there’s a cash point that you can use, you know you’re going to be stuck for cash.
Simon: And the shopping experience more widely on say …
Sheila: Well, if I’m doing a lot of shopping, I tend to use my card. If it’s something under £10 I tend to use cash (laughs).
Simon: I think Retailers are grateful for that as well ‘cos there’s no charges on cash. Well, there are charges on trying to put your money into the Bank, particularly if there aren’t any Branches nearby. As you mentioned, you know they are disappearing.
Sheila: Yes, well a friend of mine didn’t go and draw out money in a certain place I told her to, and she didn’t know about it. She used a shop where she found out she suddenly got Bank charges. Which I don’t really understand but I said, “Well you only had to go a short distance away and you could have just saved …” but I still prefer seeing people face to face and discussing things with them like in Banks etc.
62 minutes 21 seconds
Simon: I guess … I mean where there is that shopping experience left is Hurst’s always springs to my mind on the sort of Pack’s level of you know the people who work in there. Over the years they get to know you and know what you’re looking for.
Sheila: That’s right.
Simon: There is that high level of Staff to customer ratio as well which is something these days I guess in the pursuit of profit is that we end up with …
Sheila: Nowadays, people don’t know you. They really haven’t got much time to spend with you. So many of them, particularly if they’re in a shop where we’ll call it a more modern shop (laughs) where you’ve just got the tills where you pay. I mean even like Marks and Spencer’s, they’re just behind the thing and they just …
Simon: Well now they’re making you do it for yourself (laughs).
Sheila: Basically doing it for yourself and the other issue is if you’re trying to buy something, even in somewhere like Marks and Spenser’s, to actually get anyone Assistant to help you, sometimes you have to look quite far and wide. And they’re not very keen to look to go and look and see if they’ve got anything else in stock or anything.
Simon: Right.
Sheila: You know, well there is what there is.
Simon: One thing I didn’t ask you about was the Pack’s Fashion Shows. Did you ever go to any of those?
Sheila: No I didn’t, no. I didn’t really know much about them to be quite honest.
Simon: Ok. Is there anything that I haven’t asked you about that you think we should, have covered?
Sheila: I don’t think so (laughs).
Simon: Well, that’s been brilliant. Thank you very much. Really appreciate it. There’s lots of good detail there and that whole sort of shopping experience that you had with your daughter’s dress. I meant to ask you, when did you let on to your daughter to know that you’d seen the dress that she got beforehand?
Sheila: I didn’t.
Simon: You didn’t ever, right.
Sheila: I did eventually, when she chose it.
Simon: Ok.
Sheila: And Molly and I both started laughing and she said, “What’s this?” I said, “You really like that?” “Yes” she said, “this is the one I’m having.” I said, “Are you sure?” “Yes.” I said, “Well I did come in here a few days ago. I’m glad you like it.” I first of all said, “Well that’s the one I would have chosen” and then I let on.
Simon: Ah ha. That’s very good. Brilliant! Thank you very much for your time.
Interview ends.
64 minutes 54 seconds
