Simon: My name is Simon Perry and I am here for the Packs’ People Oral History Project and here in Bembridge, Bembridge on the Isle of Wight and today is the 25th of June 2024 and we’re with …
Marlene: Marlene Tolley, nee Bailey.
Simon: Thank you for letting us into your room today, into your house, much appreciated. Can you tell us your date and place of birth? The year and place of birth.
Marlene: ‘37, Binstead, Isle of Wight.
Simon: Ok. And what was the name of your mum and dad?
Marlene: Bailey.
Simon: And their first names?
Marlene: Gilbert and my mum was called Dot. That’s not her first name but she was called Dot.
Simon: Known as Dot.
Marlene: Yes.
Simon: And what did they do?
Marlene: My father was … he worked for General Electricity at Kingston Power Station. My mum was just a housewife.
Simon: So, was he doing sort of Engineering, that kind of stuff?
Marlene: No, he was a … Clerical.
Simon: Ok. Which is still there, the Power Station.
Marlene: Yes, well of course he was in the 2nd World War, but then he went to the Power Station to work. I can’t remember the dates or anything.
Simon: No, that’s fine. How was growing up in Binstead?
Marlene: Lovely. Well, it was so free, and just everybody knew everybody else. It was like villages were in those days. Just pleasant. Very poor, very, very poor we were, but we were happy children. I was one of six. I was the second eldest but we survived.
2 minutes
Simon: And school was nearby?
Marlene: Yes, that was in Binstead. A little village school which was idyllic really, looking back. At the time you don’t think it is, but it was, it was really, really nice. We knew everybody. We did all the same things and all the things girls shouldn’t do and climbed trees (laughs) and that sort of thing. But it was very nice, definitely.
Simon: Which is the year do you think we start looking back and realising that what seemed normal at the time was actually pretty idyllic? Is that …
Marlene: I think when you start getting your own family really, and with my eldest brother, we were very close, and we reminisce every week about things. As I said, we were very close, yeah.
Simon: And what happened after school? I guess you were at Binstead for …
Marlene: Binstead, and then I went to what was Green Street, in Ryde, and then we went to Upper Grade after that. And then I left school, I think it was 1952. Well, ’37 I was 15, so 1952 I suppose. Yes, I think so. And then I went straight to work at Packs. But before that I used to help somebody change their beds for their visitors and to earn 2s 6d (laughs).
Simon: As a Guest House.
Marlene: Get half a crown in a private house, to get a half a crown and that was like a million pounds to me in those days. Yeah, it was good.
Simon: I guess that people letting their rooms out was quite …
Marlene: Yes, it was The Old Forge in Binstead, opposite where the Fleming Arms is. These people had The Old Forge and they used to take in guests, like Bed and Breakfast and that, and I used to help her weekends clean, change the beds and you name it, I did it.
4 minutes 16 seconds
Simon: I guess those are the sort of glory times of visitors on the Island as well.
Marlene: Yes, that’s right, really.
Simon: I’m just thinking sort of the modern equivalent is the people letting their houses out is like Airbnb but without the internet.
Marlene: Well no, because the people booked up to come and they came on the bus, because there weren’t cars, very few cars in those days, and when we were small, well I’m saying about 9, 10, my brother and I we used to make go-carts and we used to come down Binstead Hill on it.
Simon: (laughs).
Marlene: Now you couldn’t get across (laughs) but that was the sort of things we did as … nothing cost any money, it was all what we did. We used to play cricket in the field opposite, in the Institute. Boys and girls, there was no discrimination. It was just … well really it was fun. We never regretted it. That was really my start in life.
Simon: I think racing a go-cart down Binstead Hill pretty brave (laughs).
Marlene: We used to come down there, pull it up and then one used to sit on and the other run behind.
Simon: I guess at that age …
Marlene: With pram wheels, used to have pram wheels on it.
Simon: Oh excellent, right.
Marlene: It was fun.
Simon: Yeah, you’re fearless at that age as well aren’t you?
Marlene: Yes.
Simon: So, that was … school came to an end and you think, right, ok, time for a job.
6 minutes
Marlene: No, my father decided it was time for a job (laughs). He’d played golf with Major Dabell who at the time was Managing Director of Packs, H Pack.
Simon: H Pack.
Marlene: Yeah, and he said to him, “Is there any vacancies?” apparently. He said, “My daughter’s looking for a job.”
Simon: My daughter doesn’t know she’s looking for a job.
Marlene: No, and he said, “She can start on Monday.” No interview, and I went and then you had to have a uniform. Navy blue in the winter. Moygashel material, and it was a navy-blue suit and jacket, and in the summer, you had turquoise. And you all changed the same day to the different colour uniforms.
Simon: What’s the word you said, Moygashel?
Marlene: Yeah, it was like …. It wasn’t like crimplene, it was a very soft sort of material, creased.
Simon: A synthetic or a …
Marlene: Yes a synthetic I suppose, yeah.
Simon: Right, Moygashel.
Marlene: But I used to cycle from Binstead to Ryde and we used to park down the back of Pack and Culliford. Just leave our bikes on … I don’t know what that road … Union Lane I think it’s called, and we used to park our bikes there. But you left your skirt at work the night before because you wouldn’t go in with a creased skirt else you’d be told off.
Simon: And the bikes were not locked, just placed at the back.
Marlene: Oh no, you didn’t lock things, no. But that’s what we did, yeah. And then I used to cycle home at 1 o’clock, be back at 2.
Simon: For lunch.
Marlene: Go home to lunch, yes. Didn’t eat out in those days. And yes used to change, put your fresh skirt on and went up to work.
Simon: Was that sort of 10, 15 minutes bike ride?
Marlene: Well I expect I did it in about 2 (laughs). Yes, it didn’t take long.
8 minutes 9 seconds
Simon: Yeah, quicker down the hill than up.
Marlene: Probably. Just didn’t think anything of it ‘cos you cycled everywhere didn’t you? Well, you wouldn’t know but you did.
Simon: I did used to cycle everywhere, so I know what you mean. So, that’s interesting, one the uniform, I hadn’t heard about that before and that wasn’t something you bought, they were just given to you.
Marlene: They were supplied, yes.
Simon: And when you went to change, did you have …?
Marlene: We went to the Basement. There was a Basement and you just hung it up on a hanger. There was no Changing Rooms for the Staff, but you had to be smart at all times, and I remember, it came to me the other night, when you go as I’ll say an Apprentice, you never served anyone for quite a long time. The Senior Staff was always called forward, Miss so and so, Mrs so and so, but then when you were the only one, you went … the Buyer or the Boss, she shadowed you to see that you said the right things to the right people.
Simon: And they then gave you feedback …
Marlene: You gradually moved up, as another Junior came, you did a bit more.
Simon: So, when they were shadowing you, did they after the customer left, they’d say, “That was great and next time think about saying this.”
Marlene: Well I don’t know that they said that was great, but she said, “you could have done better there” (laughs). But things were very expensive in those days, but it was beautiful clothes, and I remember the … when certain people from Ryde or Sea View came into the shop, the Boss knew forward, and as soon as she knew what they wanted, she’d sort of shadow you over to the rail or drawer or whatever, to make sure you picked out the most expensive …
10 minutes 11 seconds
Simon: (laughs).
Marlene: … oh yes and everything … the drawers where sweaters and things were kept, that was cleaned every week, and you folded them up neatly. It was just a good experience. You wouldn’t throw anything back in the drawer. It went in as it came out. Everything was covered in dust sheets at night. It was just really a good training.
Simon: That’s interesting that literally everything was taken out of all of the drawers …
Marlene: Once a week.
Simon: … dusted down I guess or shaken out …
Marlene: Yeah you brushed them out yeah and put … I think we had to have tissue paper in the bottom. Something seems to remind me of that, and then you folded it all back and you usually put the bottom things at the top. ‘Cos it was counters of course in those days.
Simon: So, there was a glass front so everyone sees what’s in there.
Marlene: Yes.
Simon: And was that done during working hours?
Marlene: Oh yes.
Simon: So, that was sort of seen as ok …
Marlene: Oh yes. Well, you were working weren’t you?
Simon: Ok.
Marlene: You weren’t stood about talking.
Simon: Yeah, and it showed to the customers that you took care of the stock.
Marlene: Yes and you always brushed the top of the rails and just made sure everything was clean.
Simon: I mean just the … putting dust sheets out. I mean how many things were covered with dust sheets?
Marlene: Well everything was covered in dust sheets at night.
Simon: So, all the counters, all of the …
Marlene: Yes, everything was covered in dust sheets.
Simon: Mannequins.
Marlene: Yes.
Simon: Goodness. Where did they get stored then, the dust sheets?
Marlene: In the Basement. Well, I suppose we had a cupboard for them to just … it was only like a sheet really. Each one did their own Department, so it didn’t really take very long, just used to it really.
12 minutes 16 seconds
Simon: And then before doors opened, then the dustsheets came off again.
Marlene: Oh of course. And if you were a minute late, woe betide you.
Simon: What happened if you were late?
Marlene: Well, you were told off.
Simon: Publicly.
Marlene: In no uncertain terms as well in front of the other girls.
Simon: And so how many times were you late?
Marlene: I don’t think I was ever really late. I might have been but I can’t remember, so she couldn’t have been too stern with me (laughs).
Simon: But you saw others maybe getting a dressing down.
Marlene: Yeah, just sort of ‘don’t be late tomorrow’ or something like that. Not too severe.
Simon: So, how much before … doors opened at 9 I guess?
Marlene: 9, you had to be there by a quarter to, really.
Simon: Ok, that’s not too bad.
Marlene: No. Of course, each Department, I think there was four in the Children’s Department, four of us, but each Department had their own Staff. Like the Children’s Department, Haberdashery, Hosiery, you know and then you went upstairs to Hats and Dresses and then Coats. Different Departments, and they were all separate … you had your own Buyer, or Boss for that Department, which really was quite good because if you got told off by your Boss, you could moan about it to the other people. But I do remember I had a ladder in my stockings in those days and I can hear her saying it to this day, “Miss Bailey, here, you have a ladder. Go round to Haberdashery, get yourself a new pair and it will be deducted from your wages on Friday.” And you had to do it. You couldn’t go with a repaired … if you had a ladder in your foot you repaired it obviously but if you had one in … you weren’t allowed to wear stockings with ladders.
14 minutes 23 seconds
Simon: Did you get a Staff discount?
Marlene: Yes I think we did. I was thinking that, yeah.
Simon: I was thinking otherwise you’d end up having to buy a very expensive pair of stockings (laughs).
Marlene: Yes.
Simon: In the sort of high-end shop.
Marlene: Yes, and of course you made sure you took them off when you go on your bicycle.
Simon: Right. That’s a mistake you make once is it?
Marlene: Yes.
Simon: So, after the bike ride, I’m just thinking about the sort of … you get to the hill, you put your bike on a …
Marlene: You just leant it against the wall. You didn’t put it anywhere, you just leant it against the wall.
Simon: Ok. And then there was a sort of Staff entrance was there?
Marlene: Yes, at the back. You went down to the Basement and put your bag and everything. No, I think we were allowed to take our bags upstairs, but they weren’t like they were today, just like a small bag.
Simon: And that’s where you’d change into your …
Marlene: Yes, in the Basement, yeah. When I say Basement, it was just like a great big room, and that’s where the stores were kept.
Simon: For clothes.
Marlene: For the stock.
Simon: And that was interesting what you were saying about two colours of uniform.
Marlene: Yes, winter and summer.
Simon: I guess that … it seemed like a very sort of commercially astute that they knew what they were doing.
Marlene: Yeah, of course they did, yes.
Simon: And so the idea of the Staff then changing their clothes, makes people think, ‘oh right I …’
Marlene: Springs coming. Summer …
Simon: Yes. They then need to …
Marlene: I can’t remember what time of year we did that. It was Spring and yeah.
Simon: And which was your favourite colour outfit from the two?
Marlene: Oh at the time I liked the turquoise.
16 minutes 18 seconds
Simon: Was that because it was associated with …?
Marlene: The navy was very smart. It was a straight skirt, and like a longish jacket, if I remember rightly, with reveres.
Simon: What are reveres?
Marlene: Well something like that. Like you have on a suit.
Simon: Ok, open collars, right, ok. And the style of the turquoise one was …
Marlene: Just the same, exactly the same.
Simon: The same cut, ok, right. Can you remember your first day there?
Marlene: I was very nervous I know that. But that’s really all I can remember about it being quite nerve wracking and then as I moved on a bit, every year they had Fashion Shows in different places. We used to come to Bembridge and I remember going to Tyne Hall and I think we went to another place in Bembridge. I can’t remember, but we used to do them in just different big places. I think we did one in the Town Hall at one time.
Simon: Ryde Town Hall.
Marlene: Yes. Just different places people would ask you for their … if they had a Garden Party or something like that, but I think they sold a lot of clothes through it.
Simon: So, someone holding a Garden Party would then say, “Can I have a Fashion Show?”
Marlene: I suppose so. I wasn’t anything to do with that of course, and Jones’s which was a Shoe Shop in Union Street, they used to let you have a pair of shoes to wear at the Show and afterwards if you wanted to buy them, you got them at a discount. But for somebody who only earnt 25 shillings a week couldn’t afford a pair of Jones’s shoes but it was a nice experience.
18 minutes 18 seconds
Simon: You did that did you? The modelling at the Show.
Marlene: Yeah.
Simon: Ok. And how did that come about?
Marlene: Well they just asked if you would do it, and they gave you 10 shillings, and that was good.
Simon: So, was it the thrill of dressing up or the thrill of the money that was appealing?
Marlene: The dressing up. Oh yes, ‘cos as young people you very rarely had anything new, and at 15, to be able to wear really top-class clothes. I don’t think you had your hair done, you did it yourself. It was none of that sort of thing, and makeup you just helped each other, not like today.
Simon: So, it was very exciting to be asked then.
Marlene: It was really, yes. This may not be recorded but I remember at Tyne Hall, these new shoes were of course very slippery, and we used to dress upstairs, come down the stairs out onto the … used to go round the swimming pool. They had a big swimming pool and I slipped from the top of the stairs to the bottom and from around the corner, came the very first black gentleman I’d seen, and he had a lot of gold teeth, and he bent down to pick me up and I was so frightened or disturbed shall I say. He picked me up and I went on but it did shake me up, both ways. Very kind but I think he was the first Waiter that lived around this area.
20 minutes 4 seconds
Simon: And so that experience and exposure to somebody you hadn’t seen before.
Marlene: Yes, it unnerved me but I’ve always remembered it and you do remember those sort of things don’t you really?
Simon: Right, and the kindness he showed towards you.
Marlene: Yes, oh very kind, but I can just remember those gold teeth and his lovely smile, but oooh …
Simon: Did you see him around much again?
Marlene: No, ‘cos I think they virtually stayed in house, I don’t know. I really don’t know, ‘cos I didn’t live in Bembridge then you see, I still lived in Binstead.
Simon: Right. So how many of the Fashion Shows did you do then?
Marlene: I don’t remember. No, I can’t remember.
Simon: Was there one or like one a month or …?
Marlene: Might have been one a year, there might have been two a year, I don’t know. Perhaps each season maybe.
Simon: And I guess in the way that they do it now, they pick the clothes out for you and say …
Marlene: Yes, that’s what they used to do, and it wasn’t like a catwalk. One walked round and I’d walk round twice but that was how it was. It wasn’t many doing it. I can’t even remember how many.
Simon: So it must have been … I’m just imagining the excitement of …
Marlene: It was exciting yes. It was interesting to, when I sometimes sit here and think about it, yeah.
Simon: And I guess you get to see if it’s in people’s Garden Parties and that sort of stuff, you get to see bits of the Island you hadn’t seen before.
Marlene: Definitely. And when I came to Bembridge to live, a lady that I knew … I didn’t know her rather, when I got to know her, she said, “I can remember you as a young girl being at a Garden Party.”
Simon: Wow! Right.
Marlene: She always said that to me. We became very good friends actually after that.
22 minutes 11 seconds
Simon: Isn’t it funny that someone … you’re in the same space as someone for an hour or whatever and then however many decades later you bump into each other.
Marlene: Yeah, and I was friends her and then I’ve been friends with the family for ever really. It’s quite lovely.
Simon: I was thinking back to when your dad had secretly got you this job that you didn’t know that you wanted to have or didn’t want to have (laughs). How did he introduce the idea to you? When he’d sorted it all out.
Marlene: “I’ve got you a job in Packs and you start on Monday.”
Simon: Right, no discussion (laughs).
Marlene: And what he said you did.
Simon: Ok.
Marlene: You didn’t disagree,
Simon: So, was it sort of sitting round the dinner table or …?
Marlene: No, he came in from golf and, “I’ve got you a job, and you start on Monday.” And that was on the Sunday morning, and I was terrified. But it all worked out.
Simon: What was the terror then? Where did that come from?
Marlene: Well, somebody telling me what to do out of my normal circle.
Simon: I see.
Marlene: I don’t know really but I was. You’d left school, where you could do what you wanted really (laughs) and then go and be organised by you didn’t know who. But it worked out ok.
Simon: We’re you aware of the shop before you got the job?
Marlene: Oh yes. It was the posh shop (laughs). The likes of us didn’t go in there (laughs).
Simon: So, was it exciting to be at the posh shop? You were thinking …
Marlene: Oh it was, it was quite something to say, if people said,” Have you got a job? Where are you working?” “I work in Packs.” “Do you?”
Simon: Right, ok.
24 minutes 5 seconds
Marlene: And when it was Christmas time, we used to collect the boxes from … I know I’m jumping about but I’ve just remembered this.
Simon: That’s fine.
Marlene: We used to collect the boxes from the Hosiery Department, the stocking boxes, which were I suppose well what stockings fitted in, and we used to cover those with Christmas paper and sell them. As Apprentices, well …
Simon: In the shop?
Marlene: Yeah. We did it on the counter and if anybody came in, you’d put it out the way, and they used to use those boxes as well, if you did bigger ones like the Hosiery Department did theirs, and that’s … I can’t remember how much they were but people bought them to put different things in.
Simon: So, you’d taken the boxes and wrapped them in Christmas type paper?
Marlene: Yes, oh yeah.
Simon: Ok, and that was sort of encouraged or sanctioned by the shop.
Marlene: Oh yeah.
Simon: So, I guess it’s a sort of recycling really.
Marlene: Yes it was, yes.
Simon: I guess in those days as well …
Marlene: They had to be proper corners. You didn’t do a rough corner, they had to be fitted properly.
Simon: Standards for everything.
Marlene: Yes. Yeah it was.
Simon: Yeah. Well, a beautifully wrapped box is quite a thing isn’t it?
Marlene: Is very nice, yes it is.
Simon: So, have you kept those … the wrapping skills to the day?
Marlene: Well, I can still wrap a box (laughs). And a bow. If somebody came in (laughs), tried a dress on with a belt or anything like that, and you were taught how to tie a bow. Not a floppy bow. In fact …
Simon: What’s the technique then?
26 minutes
Marlene: Well you just tie it properly (laughs). Louise, my granddaughter, she had a skirt or something on with a bow in the front one day, and it didn’t look very smart, and I said to her, “Just come here Louise, I’ll show you how to tie a bow” and I tied it and she said, “Well I never knew that” and she was really quite delighted and now she’ll say, “That bow doesn’t look very nice.” (laughs). But that was just something that you pick up in life. As you go through life you pick up certain things don’t you?
Simon: And keep them with you.
Marlene: Yes you do. You don’t forget those sort of things.
Simon: So, when you arrived on the first day, were they quite gentle with you?
Marlene: I would think so, otherwise I probably wouldn’t have gone back the next day. I don’t know really. It’s a long time ago.
Simon: Yeah. And sort of showed you gently … ‘cos you’d turn up with no retail skill I guess.
Marlene: No, none at all.
Simon: What were you told that your role would be there?
Marlene: Well, you stand there or you do this and you do that. You were just a Junior, as Juniors were in those days. You did as you were told. You never answered back, and you were polite to the customers really.
Simon: So, it would be things like what? Fetching stock from the Cellar or …
Marlene: Yes if necessary or going up to the Work Room if somebody wanted something taken up. The Work Room was right on the top floor, and that was almost a retreat ‘cos you went up to the Work Room and you could have a chat with the others, whereas you weren’t allowed to talk amongst yourselves in the shop. You had to be busy.
Simon: So, somebody comes in and tries a bit of clothing on and needs some alteration. Were you the one that took the sizes?
Marlene: No, you rang the Work Shop and the Seamstress whoever came down, took the whatever and then it was taken up to … either you took it up or the Seamstress took it back up. No lift, up all the stairs. Took longer.
Simon: So, you were on the Ground Floor.
Marlene: Yes.
Simon: How many …
Marlene: We were on the First Floor ‘cos the Ground Floor of course was the Basement. And then you had the First Floor and then there was I think it was Dresses and Coats and that on the next floor, and then it was the Milliners at the top.
28 minutes 35 seconds
Simon: And then above that …
Marlene: And then above that was the … it might have been above it or it might have been off it, but it was at the top.
Simon: I mean rooms at the top get hot don’t they?
Marlene: It was a big store. Yeah.
Simon: So it was pretty warm up there in the summer.
Marlene: I can’t remember that either (laughs).
Simon: There was quite a few people working up there.
Marlene: Oh yes.
Simon: What sort of number?
Marlene: I suppose about half a dozen I suppose, because of course you had the … not only our Department. There was the Milliners. Of course, they made hats in those days or adjusted them, put extra feathers on or whatever they wanted. And they used to steam hats to get them the right size for people. I can remember seeing them do that.
Simon: And that gives you some flexibility to make them larger.
Marlene: Yeah.
Simon: Just sort of loosen the fibres a bit.
Marlene: And ribbons. They just used to add all sorts of things to them.
Simon: It seems, especially these days, having six people available or busy enough to be employed. That’s a lot of alterations.
Marlene: Yeah, and they were skilled people, very skilled. But of course, it was top quality clothes really that they were working on, so they had to be skilled to do it.
30 minutes 8 seconds
Simon: I was chatting to somebody yesterday and she was saying that she’s just found the dress that she had made for when her daughter got married. They can’t find the wedding dress, they thought it was up in the loft, but that seems to have vanished now, but still with a cover on it and obviously …
Marlene: My daughter’s … two of my daughter’s still got their wedding dresses, and they both bought them from Pack and Culliford actually. No, Miss Pack I think. Anyway, it came from the same store, both of them.
Simon: And you said it was H Pack when you got there.
Marlene: Yes, it was H Pack & Co. Definitely.
Simon: And that’s the sort of French Frank’s that Pack & Co …
Marlene: Yes, well the whole of French Frank’s, yeah.
Simon: Yeah, so stretching either side of that.
Marlene: Yeah, and in that little … there’s like a little show case in the middle of that, and they used to put really posh stuff in there. Really good stuff in there. All sorts of things.
Simon: I was really interested that you said that each section had a Buyer. I’d assumed that Elizabeth Pack would be the one buying everything, or whoever ran the shop at the time.
Marlene: The Traders used to come.
Simon: The Representatives.
Marlene: Yes, they used to come and they used to take their stuff out their cases and show it to you and you know. All the Departments had somebody that came. What did they used to call them? Travellers, I think that’s what they were called, and they went to each Department. ‘Cos you had Haberdashery and you also had the Hosiery Department. They used to buy what they thought people would want, and then it used to come I suppose by Post, I don’t know if there was Post then (laughs).
32 minutes 16 seconds
Simon: It’s quite a skill to make sure that you’re …
Marlene: That what you bought was what people wanted. But the Buyer from the Children’s Department, she knew if he showed her something, if it was full of smocking and … you probably don’t know what smocking is, but it was like embroidery all across the top of a lovely dress, quality dress, she knew who would buy that. Mrs Soames [Marlene reflected on this later and realised it was actually Mrs Wyatt], but they only bought one of anything, they wouldn’t buy two. That was quite interesting really, and you saw, when you got those things in or she’d say, “Somethings coming in that you might like.”
Simon: Oh what, pre-warn the people or warm them up.
Marlene: Yeah. I can remember lots of the names of the people who used to come in and she knew. She’d say, “Look what arrived today then.”
Simon: (laughs).
Marlene: You’d get them in different sizes sometimes, but mainly one of a good quality thing.
Simon: I mean that’s smart if you’re charging top dollar, you want exclusivity.
Marlene: Yeah, that’s right. So, you know …
Simon: With the idea of everyone was a ‘Miss this’ or a ‘Mrs that’ …
Marlene: You never got called by your Christian name at all. No, and if she heard one of the other Staff, she’s tell them off. She was a Tartar but it was worth it in the end.
Simon: What’s a Tartar?
Marlene: Somebody sharp at you.
Simon: Ok.
34 minutes 5 seconds
Marlene: “Miss Bailey here” (laughs). But it all worked out in the end.
Simon: Yeah. I guess, particularly the first trouble out of school to have somewhere that was well considered, well run sort of sets you up for … you understand what a standard is.
Marlene: Oh it does, definitely. Lots of little things sometimes come back to me and my daughters might look at me and think to themselves yeah …
Simon: (laughs).
Marlene: But it’s life isn’t it? Some things in life you remember and some you don’t, and the more you think about it, the more it makes you feel quite happy to think you’ve gone through that era really. ‘Cos when I go to a shop now, and they give you your change and they say, “Here ya go.” We used to have to count the change out to people although that’s not quite true. There was a Cash Desk. You used to have to go to the … they paid at the Cash Desk, but latterly everybody counted the money out to people .
Simon: Oh, that changed eventually, the centralised Cash Desk then came Tills.
Marlene: Yes. It didn’t become Tills. No, I think you did a stint in the Cash Desk in case anyone was away. Not very often, but you had to know how to give change to people. No, I’m telling you lies. You took the thing to the Cash Desk; they gave you the change and you gave it to the customer. Yeah, that’s it. But you had to count it out properly and it was Pounds, shillings and pence in those days. You know, 22, 24, 30.
36 minutes 4 seconds
Simon: And did some people have accounts we’ve heard?
Marlene: Oh yes.
Simon: And what qualified for somebody for an account?
Marlene: I don’t know. I expect if you had plenty (laughs).
Simon: Right. And they’d then settle those up at the end of the month I guess.
Marlene: I suppose so, yeah. There were no cards or anything in those days, it was all cash. And people could take things home on what they called ‘appro’. They could take them home, you gave them a docket, they took it home, see if they liked it and then they would come back the next day and pay for it, which was quite a good thing. I mean people do that now but that was a good thing because they knew when they got home, if they liked it and they kept it, it was sold. But we didn’t have commission or anything in those days, whereas I think as time went on you got commission. But you know I’m going back to the dark ages aren’t I (laughs).
Simon: So, ‘appro’ you paid for it.
Marlene: No, you didn’t pay for it. You had a docket and they only let people who were customers, not somebody who had just come off the street. They wouldn’t let them take it.
Simon: They had Changing Rooms and the like there.
Marlene: Oh yeah.
Simon: So, you needed a bit more time with the garment …
Marlene: The customer, oh yeah.
Simon: … to make sure you decided if you wanted to buy it or not.
Marlene: Oh yes.
Simon: Was that short for something, ‘appro’ do you think?
Marlene: Approval I suppose.
Simon: Ah, right. Yeah, that makes sense doesn’t it?
Marlene: We used to sell things from new babies right up until I suppose they were about 16 or 17 in the Children’s Department. That was lovely. I liked that.
Simon: And school uniforms was a big part of it.
38 minutes 4 seconds
Marlene: Yes, school uniforms. West Wing I think we sold. I don’t know about Ryde School but I know we did West Wing, that was in Melville Street in Ryde, but I can’t really remember … I know we used to sell school uniforms, yes.
Simon: Someone was saying that they went there for their school uniform but something about there was a Catholic School nearby and …
Marlene: The Convent.
Simon: Was that it? Right. If the Convent girls were there, then they sort of looked down on the other people (laughs).
Marlene: The Convent girls, Convent we used to sell I think, yeah.
Simon: Well, thinking about that sort of hierarchy, you know the idea of people …
Marlene: ‘Cos the Convent wore brown. I remember that (clears throat). There was one or two private schools in Ryde at that time. I suppose Fowler’s might have sold … I don’t know, I can’t remember.
Simon: And was there a rivalry with Fowler’s? I mean it’s sort of right next door more or less.
Marlene: No I don’t think so.
Simon: Different type of shop.
Marlene: Similar but not the quality.
Simon: (laughs) Love the way you said that (laughs). When we were talking about the names, everyone having Miss or Mrs or … what was the hierarchy within the Staff like?
Marlene: Most of them were very nice to you. The Senior Sales Woman she was very … Mrs Farminer. She was, she was a very, very nice … if the old lady … if the Boss told you off, she would say, “Don’t worry, don’t worry” and that’s what made you feel more comfortable.
Simon: Right.
Marlene: Like at home, if your dad told you off, your mum said, “Don’t worry about it.” Similar sort of thing really.
40 minutes 19 seconds
Simon: So, would you be allowed to talk to the person who ran the shop, the whole thing? Or did you have to speak to somebody who was above you that they would then speak to somebody?
Marlene: Oh yes. You never spoke to … and when Major Dabell who was Managing Director at that time when I was there, you almost stood to attention when he came through.
Simon: With a name like that I guess you sort of given a clue.
Marlene: Yes, his family had Blackgang Chine when it first …well, might have been going for some time but yes, and he was a Major.
Simon: Striding around, right, soldier walk.
Marlene: Yeah.
Simon: I mean it’s good that he was there otherwise you might not have got the job (laughs).
Marlene: Oh yes. Well, who knows? And there was a … I think he must have been the main sanctioned the buying, Mr Osborne his name was. He was quite old in those days. Well (laughs) about my age I expect. No, younger than me obviously, but he was a very smart man. Once he came into the shop floor, you knew that Mr Osborne was about. He did the wages and those sorts of things.
Simon: So, he was sort of practical over every day control.
Marlene: I would think so. You know certain things as a youngster you don’t really know what their position is do you? Not really.
Simon: What was it about him …
Marlene: He did the wages and if a main order came in, he would take it down to Mr Osborne, or the Boss would, and get him to order it, specifically for people. The Buyer didn’t do that. He did the ordering, I know that, yeah, but when you think about it, it’s almost Victorian (yawns) but it’s a nice memory to have really.
Simon: What do you feel when you go … I mean you’ve sort of hinted at it on the change side, but when you go into shops these days …
Marlene: I don’t like it. It’s like, personally I think everybody should handle cash anyway, but when they say, “Here ya go” that really … if you say to someone in a shop today, “Oh, I’ve got the 4 pence or whatever, “I’ve done it” because they don’t think they can work it out personally.
Simon: The subtraction of the 4 pence from the … yeah
Marlene: “I’ve done it.” Of course, the Tills al give change, tell you how much. Sometimes they can’t count the change out in the Till.
Simon: And apart from the change, what other bits do you think are missing from the shopping experience these days?
Marlene: I don’t go shopping very much these days but very few shops have got the understanding of the customer really. That’s what I think has gone. The finesse of it I suppose. Some shops you go into are not too bad but as I say, I don’t shop very much these days. Only when I go out with my family. We sometimes go shopping.
44 minutes
Simon: I guess what has happened is, the experience that you had at Packs was that it’s tremendously tailored to the individual isn’t it?
Marlene: That’s right, yes it was , definitely.
Simon: Whereas these days it’s all about how big can we be and …
Marlene: How much can we take?
Simon: … yeah, how ‘efficient’ can we be?
Marlene: Yeah, that’s right.
Simon: And that strips the humanity out of it.
Marlene: Of course nowadays, children don’t handle cash very much do they? That’s I think the problem. They don’t understand it. My daughter and her family, they do shopping for me, and I always pay them in cash when they come … well when they bring it to me or … and we always do it to the penny. We don’t say, “Keep the change” or … we always do it and I’ve done it all my life with them. They do it with me.
Simon: When you give the money back you don’t say. “Here ya go” then do you? (laughs).
Marlene: I say, “There’s my purse, help yourself” (laughs). No, but we like to be straight with finances. I think that’s what’s lost along the way now, but then everything changed as you say with all this electronic. It’s all change.
Simon: With the … you were sort of talking about the standards within the shop. What other standards have we not touched on do you think that would be of interest to people in the future?
45 minutes 46 seconds
Marlene: Well, you always had to have your hair smart, cut if it was too long and went over your collar. I was fortunate I never had long hair, but they would tell you. “Your hair is touching your collar” which looking back, people didn’t wash their hair every day, and I suppose if it rubbed on your collar, you had a dirty collar. Looking back on these sorts of things, at the time you think ‘oh’, but I think that’s something. You just had to be smart at all times. Your shoes had to be polished or spotless. I think we either had to wear navy or black shoes and when I first started, we didn’t wear heels but then when you get a bit more brave you can wear a heel (laughs).
Simon: And the shoes were something that you left at the shop as well. You didn’t cycle in those.
Marlene: Oh no. Though they were yours, but you wouldn’t wear them on your bike, no.
Simon: What about … the standards of customer … I know it’s a horrible word, interactions. It’s only because my brain isn’t working fully, but when people first come in and you mentioned something about being … people being summoned up …
Marlene: Yes, well the senior one went first, and down the ranks, and the Junior would always go last if the others were serving, but the Buyer, or the Boss, you could see she was almost shadowing you to see that you said the right thing. If they said, “We’re looking for a cashmere something, what have you got?” or “something for my 4-year-old grandchild”, you would find the best thing first. You always went to the most expensive and then gradually came down. It was quite nice really.
48 minutes 3 seconds
Simon: That’s a smart way to do retail.
Marlene: ‘Cos obviously baby things, you know you sold shawls and lovely baby clothes, but then they had to last. That was something that I do remember. Just that’s how it was.
Simon: Were they … do you think the families passed their clothing down to the next child?
Marlene: Oh yes.
Simon: I mean that’s the thing about children is, they grow so fast (laughs).
Marlene: They just passed them on to anybody that it would fit. I mean my two youngest daughters, they nearly always had ‘hand-me-downs’. I couldn’t afford to go and buy them anything. I’m going on now to obviously a bit later in time, but in those days, you know you couldn’t afford to go and buy this quality stuff ‘cos that’s what it was. But then you couldn’t buy cheap stuff. You either made it which a lot of people did make things, but yeah.
Simon: So apart from the hair length standards …
Marlene: If you had long hair, you had to have it either up in a bun or well, I didn’t bother me ‘cos my hair was never very long, but they had a bun or a pony tail pulled up.
Simon: And did … you mentioned a couple of men working there …
Marlene: Two Porters.
Simon: Ok.
Marlene: They delivered on a bicycle. If somebody’s goods came in, they would deliver them. And of course they unloaded any stock that came, and I would assume they cleaned, I don’t know, I can’t remember that. ‘Cos of course once you’ve left, you don’t know what goes on.
50 minutes 2 seconds
Simon: So when people had … was that after they’d bought something and it had arrived or after it had been altered?
Marlene: They delivered it on their bicycle. They had one of those with a thing on the front ..
Simon: Oh, a basket.
Marlene: Yeah and H Pack & Co on … like the bread bicycles used to be. They used to cycle a long way too. There was no delivery van. People either came and got them or they’d cycle Haylands and, well wherever they had to go.
Simon: Right. Sounds like they’d have been the fittest people in the building.
Marlene: Yeah, I expect so. And I think they cleaned the windows too at that time, ‘cos they had to be kept pristine obviously.
Simon: And talking of the windows, did you notice the way the windows were dressed at all?
Marlene: Oh, they were beautiful. Yeah, they were always beautiful. Of course that’s what attracted the customers in. But on a Saturday, trips used to come over from the Mainland, day trips, the men and that and of course they used to go to the Pubs and get drunk and then they used to come in about half past two, 2 o’clock, but they always wanted the Underwear Department, these men did (laughs). The things they used to buy to take to their wives home ‘cos of course it was … they had colours in those days in Packs, coloured underwear and that, and they used to take ever such a lot of money on a Saturday ‘cos these men were pie eyed (laughs). Or else they wanted something for a new baby. They were astounded but they paid it because they had the money for their day out.
Simon: Right.
Marlene: But we had to be prepared for that, and if they made advances to you, oh, be careful my dear (laughs). But it was fun.
Simon: Got a sharp response did they?
52 minutes 6 seconds
Marlene: Yeah.
Simon: So, they’d come over just for sort of …
Marlene: Used to be day trips, you know like I suppose Sportsmen and that. I don’t know who they were, but there used to be loads of Day Trippers come to Ryde on a Saturday. Of course they came over on the Ferry. It was like a holiday. They went in the King Lud and used trees (laughs). That was how it was. People did go out for the day, and the Island, coming on the Ferry that you sat up on the top and thoroughly enjoyed yourself. That was quite good fun.
Simon: I’m intrigued on this idea of the approach to customers and knowing …
Marlene: You used to say to them, “Can I help you in any way?” They’d say, “I’m just looking” and then you didn’t follow them around, and if they approached you, because you’d asked them, you used to have to call the next one up to serve them ‘cos you were the Junior. I did move up a bit. I didn’t get to Senior but I did move up a little bit. But you always feel sorry for the one under you, but that’s how you learn. It’s like anything in life, experience is the best way of learning.
Simon: How long were you there in total then?
Marlene: About 3 years I expect. ’52, ’53, ’54, about 3 years I suppose. I loved it there, yeah I did.
Simon: So, how many Juniors did you have underneath you?
Marlene: Only one.
Simon: So, you sort of have 18 months of getting trained.
Marlene: Yes.
Simon: It must have been quite exciting to …
Marlene: To have a Junior.
Simon: Yeah, but as you say …
Marlene: And then you could go to any Department. If you wanted train in anything else, you could do that. ‘Cos I wasn’t there long enough to do that.
54 minutes 20 seconds
Simon: If one of them sort of either the Hats took you …
Marlene: If they wanted a new Junior in another Department, you could go there and train or whatever.
Simon: What do you remember about your Junior?
Marlene: I don’t really. Of course, when you’ve moved up, you’re moved up aren’t you (laughs).
Simon: (laughs). So, lunch was bike ride home, and then back afterwards. Did you hang around and ride after work or …?
Marlene: No. Went home.
Simon: Back to get on a whatsit to go down the hill (laughs). How was the relations between the different people that worked there?
Marlene: Oh very friendly. Everybody was very nice. It was a very nice place to work. That’s really all I can say. I enjoyed it there. Obviously you get your ups and downs but I did enjoy it there, yeah.
Simon: I did speak to somebody who’d been on a trip to London. This is later on with I think with Miss Guy who was I think the sort of Boss.
Marlene: Miss Guy was in the Dress Department when I was there.
Simon: Was she?
Marlene: Yeah. She was a nice person. Strict, but then in those sort od places you had to be if you wanted quality Staff (laughs).
56 minutes 3 seconds
Simon: She was saying that she did a trip to London with her and sort of got to know her as a person which had never happened before. [Oh, mind the microphone] It had never happened before.
Marlene: No, I sure.
Simon: But then back on Monday morning it was back to the … almost a sort of performance that she had. You didn’t get to know them outside work.
Marlene: No, no.
Simon: And what drew the three years of working there to a halt.
Marlene: My father.
Simon: He’d been playing golf with somebody else had he?
Marlene: No, he had taken on what was the Smuggler’s Barn in Bembridge. It was a Pub at the time. He had taken that on with my mum but he wanted to keep his job, so he said, “I want you to come and work for me” and I wasn’t very happy about it at the time, but what your father told you, you had to do. And that’s how I met my first husband, by working there, and that was the result of that.
Simon: (laughs).
Marlene: One of them, and that’s how I came to Bembridge to live.
Simon: Ok. So, you were then running what was a Pub at the time or …
Marlene: Yes, with my mum, but I was the one who was there nearly all the time because dad was, I’m going to say he was very cunning, he knew get a smart young girl behind the Bar and it brings in customers, and it jolly well did.
Simon: How much of the training from Packs …?
Marlene: I think it was good. You didn’t put up with any nonsense from people.
Simon: That’s interesting isn’t it ‘cos how old were you then? Sort of 18, 19.
Marlene: 17 ½, 18.
Simon: To have an awareness of where a line lays at that age, of what behaviour is acceptable or not from people.
Marlene: You just don’t accept it.
58 minutes 6 seconds
Simon: It’s quite unusual to have that ability to choose.
Marlene: Yes, you didn’t accept it. No, you didn’t accept it.
Simon: That’s interesting, yeah that is interesting.
Marlene: I remember one customer, he was an older man, he always used to want me to serve him and I was going to say he was a bit of a randy old chap I suppose and he got so fresh, you know he wouldn’t let go of my hand when I gave him his change, and I just picked up the soda syphon and squirted at him.
Simon: (laughs).
Marlene: But I tell you what he never did it again. My dad was furious.
Simon: That’s very good, well done.
Marlene: Well, you know that was the way I was brought up (laughs). You don’t do things like that.
Simon: (laughs). I love that justice.
Marlene: And so with the bottles on the counter, you used to have in those days.
Simon: I can see it in a sort of ‘Tom and Jerry’ …
Marlene: I could tell you his name now but I won’t, but he was a business man, yeah. I didn’t put up with any nonsense.
Simon: I sort of see it in a ‘Tom and Jerry’ style.
Marlene: Yes, that’s it.
Simon: So, that’s interesting that the way that Pack and Cullifords, or H Pack at the time, had trained you then forms the rest of your …
Marlene: Yeah, for the rest of my life. That’s quite right. Different things I do in the house I know comes back from those days. Like she used to go, “Has anybody cleaned that? Dust!”
Simon: You don’t cover all of your furniture with dust covers every night.
Marlene: No. I’ve got a job to go to bed at night (laughs) cover with dust sheets.
Simon: That is quite remarkable. You think about the number of people that worked there. I think at one point we heard there was 70 Staff. To think that a business can have a positive influence on people’s lives for the rest of their lives, isn’t something you’d imagine today.
Marlene: Oh no, you wouldn’t.
Simon: It would be very rare wouldn’t it?
60 minutes 11 seconds
Marlene: And I have seen people that I worked with getting older and you meet them out and that, and we used to really reminisce, like one does, and you’ve still got the same opinions of it. You never wore too much makeup, that was another thing. You just wore a little makeup and then you gradually got a little bit more, and a little bit more. Just different things like that. Your nails had to be spotlessly clean and no colour. The older ladies used to sometimes wear colour.
Simon: On their nails.
Marlene: Yeah, but it always had to have … well your hands had to look presentable, as you did. But it was good. Looking back on it, I realise what a good training it’s been. Like the bow.
Simon: Right. I wonder is there any more that you could remember from the Fashion Shows do you think because …?
Marlene: Not really because they are very hyped up at the time.
Simon: It was the place to be.
Marlene: Yes, yeah it was.
Simon: Right.
Marlene: And if you did it, you were somebody. Just for those few hours, but it was nice. I wore some nice things.
Simon: So, what do you think that I should have asked you about that I haven’t asked you about? Is there any thoughts that come to your mind?
Marlene: Not really. I wanted to tell you about the boxes ‘cos I thought that was quite important for a quality shop like that, to cover boxes. I don’t know how much the boxes were, and if somebody bought a baby coat or something like that, you laid it in this box with tissue paper, and the tissue never had to be creased. You put it on the box, and you folded it in the middle until it fitted the right size. You didn’t cut it, you had to make it so that it was smooth and … just those sorts of things that you were taught to do properly. I mean sometimes now you, well, people put things in a box. It still looks nice but to me, it should be folded properly.
62 minutes 38 seconds
Simon: Yeah that sort of standards to the very last isn’t it?
Marlene: Well you don’t even get a bag now do you?
Simon: True.
Marlene: You know when people went out with a big carrier bag with H Pack & Co on it, you walked down the street, my God you were somebody. ‘Cos there was another shop at the top of the High Street called Hill’s Stores. I don’t know whether they sold clothes. I can’t really remember. I know they sold household, sheets and carpets and all that sort of thing, but I think Packs and Fowler’s were the two top shops in Ryde. There was other obviously smaller shops but they were the two what you would say quality shops in those days.
Simon: And did you return to Packs or H Packs?
Marlene: Oh I used to go in and see them on odd occasions, but when you work in a Bar, you work lunchtimes and then you work evenings.
Simon: Um, that was still a bicycle ride from Binstead was it?
Marlene: No, I caught the bus to Bembridge. 1s 3d return to Bembridge (laughs).
Simon: What did you think of the Packs that opened in Cross Street?
Marlene: Is it reopened?
64 minutes 9 seconds
Simon: I’m just thinking about when they shifted from where the French Frank’s is.
Marlene: Yeah well I’d finished by then, but it was quite a nice shop but it didn’t have the same finesse as … I mean Mrs Burrows, well Miss Guy, she opened that with her son didn’t she? They still had nice stuff. That’s where you got your wedding dress. Yeah, it was good, she was still strict but it wasn’t the same. But then I was a customer going in.
Simon: And what was that experience like going in as a customer?
Marlene: I couldn’t afford it in there really (laughs). Used to go in for a coffee but that was all.
Simon: Were you a regular at The Coffee Bean then?
Marlene: No not really.
Simon: ‘Cos we had heard that people did … they sort of dressed people up and then sort of did mini–Fashion Shows.
Marlene: Oh yes they did, in there, yes.
Simon: And so about the purchasing of wedding dresses. How did that go?
Marlene: In Packs? Miss Packs?
Simon: Was that Miss Packs or was it the one that is now the Estate Agent up the road from … or was that when it was on Cross Street there was another shop on Cross Street wasn’t there?
Marlene: No, that was in Cross Street. Elizabeth Pack wasn’t it?
Simon: Yeah, that’s right.
Marlene: Oh she was still there when Mrs Burrows, Miss Guy, she was there with wedding dresses and she nearly always saw what was being sold, whoever was showing the girls, she used to say, “Well that’s not quite right” but …
Simon: Did you say that you went to buy wedding dresses there?
Marlene: My daughter’s was bought there and my youngest daughter. They both bought their wedding dresses there.
Simon: And did you go along on the …
Marlene: Certainly.
Simon: (laughs) Given the chance.
Marlene: My daughter in Canada, she got married in Canada, she bought her wedding dress there. This one’s wedding dress is up in her attic, but my youngest daughter bought her wedding … she came home to England to have a blessing and we went to Packs and asked them if they would press it and they pressed it and did everything to it so that it looked pristine, and they never charged anything for it. So, that was quite a nice thing to do.
66 minutes 47 seconds
Simon: Somebody who I interviewed was saying about the wedding dress they had and then somebody that they knew got one from I don’t know, Southampton or Portsmouth or London, that they then had to spend two days ironing the wedding dress whereas the Packs one turned up …
Marlene: Buy it local.
Simon: … beautifully presented and no work needed to it.
Marlene: That was the place to go in the past. There was one or two nice wedding dress shops now.
Simon: That’s great. Is there anything else that I should ask you about do you think?
Marlene: No, I don’t think so. It wasn’t a very long time to have been there but …
Simon: It’s been fascinating to hear it.
Marlene: Some happy memories.
Simon: Yeah, really fascinating. It’s been great and I’m really glad that we got into some details as well, so it’s been lovely. Thank you very much.
Interview ends.
67 minutes 46 seconds
