Simon: My name is Simon Perry and I am here in Northwood on the Isle of Wight, actually in Building 41, and today is the 2nd July 2024 and I’m here with …
Jane: Jane Gibbs.
Simon: Jane, this is for the Oral History Project called Packs’ People, and thanks very much for coming along today.
Jane: You’re very welcome.
Simon: Can you tell me your year and place of birth?
Jane: I was born in 1954 in a Nursing Home in Brading, on the Isle of Wight, but was brought up until I was about 7 or 8 in St Helens, which is a village, a lovely little village on the Island. We moved to Ryde when I was 7 years old and then I went to school in Ryde and my parents stayed in Ryde until they retired, so …
Simon: And what was it that your mum and dad did for jobs?
Jane: My dad was a Builder Decorator, mum was a Hairdresser, first of all full-time obviously and then when us children came along she used to do a little bit at home, so …
Simon: And which years were they born in?
Jane: Oh God, now you’re asking. Mum was 1930, and my dad would have been 1923.
Simon: And growing up, what was that like? What was your …?
Jane: It was super. I mean I remember St Helens was lovely with a lot of relations live there. Some of our family were a well-known Isle of Wight family, the Toogood’s’, so there were lots of cousins and friends and it was a tiny little village then. I went to Ryde High School which is now Ryde Academy. Happy years, yeah. I wasn’t very academic. I must admit I like sport. I just couldn’t wait to leave. I did ok in my GCEs but I just wanted to travel, and that’s what I did. When I was 19, I took off and worked in Belgium for 3 ½ years and then came back to the Island and that was until then.
2 minutes 7 seconds
Simon: And your dad had a connection with various versions of the Pack and Pack shops.
Jane: He did. I believe he started working for David Guy around the early 1960s and that wasn’t his only job but he used to go in and do repairs and help build some of the Carnival Floats as well because they used to go and enter Ryde Carnival and I’m guessing other Carnivals as well for quite a few years I believe.
Simon: And what was the stuff he was doing in the shops for them?
Jane: He would do any alterations that David wanted doing, any repairs to the building itself, I would imagine mostly interior and not exterior. He knew them quite well but he was always very respectful. It mean it was Mr Guy and Mrs Guy and they called him Mr Simmonds, so it was, yeah that was the way it was then.
Simon: Yeah, it’s interesting and obviously not a lot of that these days.
Jane: Not really, no. First name terms.
Simon: I guess probably when the Branches Banks, Branches used to have a Bank Manager. That was the last time that was used.
Jane: Yeah I’m guessing so, yeah. It was all very respectable then and he would call Mr Guy, Mr Guy when he spoke to us at home.
Simon: Oh really.
Jane: It was never David or Elizabeth, it was always Mrs Moody as well was another one he’d talk about so yeah, that’s the way it was.
Simon: Do you know how he landed the work to start with?
Jane: I honestly don’t know. No, I like to think because he was very good at what he did. He was actually, he was quite a perfectionist and later on in years he worked, gosh until he was about 70 I’m guessing, and then he would always be very pernickety about wood and quite often would pull holes in the youngers work ethic or what they’d done, so yeah I would imagine he was a really good workman.
4 minutes 13 seconds
Simon: You can imagine somewhere where everyone is called Mr or Miss or .. I mean this is what other people have said about Pack and Cullifords and also Elizabeth Pack and ‘Miss Packs’. Miss Pack I think it was wasn’t it? That everything was done to an amazingly high standard.
Jane: Ever so, yeah, ever so. And they were always very respectful, very helpful. I remember … I actually lived, oh in the early ‘80s, behind Miss Packs and often used to pop in. I can’t remember I mean to me now it wasn’t expensive but it was in the days of Dorothy Perkins I’m guessing and Etams and all those other stores that were a lot cheaper but I’m sure I did buy a dress once in Miss Packs but then it would be something special. And the same goes for Pack and Cullifords.
Simon: We’ll come back to your dad on the other bits, but we were mentioning Miss Pack. That was the one on a corner was it that leads through to the … there’s a car park at the back.
Jane: Exactly. Yeah it was right next to where Barclay’s Bank was ‘cos that’s gone now as well, and it was right on that corner. Not huge, but it was a lovely little building and they used to have ‘one offs’ if I remember so if ever you went in there, if you were buying something and wearing it for a special occasion, there wouldn’t be anyone else wearing that so … I can’t remember who worked there then but yeah, it was lovely, really nice, popular as well.
Simon: It sort of got window glazing on the side as well as on the front.
Jane: Yep, both sides windows, yeah and I remember the clothes used to hung towards the back ‘cos there were public changing rooms then. Yeah it was … I can’t even remember when it closed now but yeah, very sad.
6 minutes 14 seconds
Simon: And so that was seen as quite a place, the Miss Pack.
Jane: It was yeah, I guess … I mean I don’t know if I can name drop other places but Visual Impact you’ve got in Newport which I would imagine was on the same lines, quite expensive but one offs as I say.
Simon: I mean that’s really useful, if you’re going to spend some money to know someone else is going to turn up not with it.
Jane: It is, yeah it is but it was like that in those days (laughs).
Simon: Do you remember anything about the window displays or anything along on that in Miss Packs?
Jane: What in Miss Packs?
Simon: Yeah.
Jane: Oh always beautifully done with the dummies in the front the same as Pack and Cullifords. Always refreshing them, bright colours always then, if I can remember rightly, but it was popular. It was a shame really that it has all disappeared now, but there you go.
Simon: And when your dad was there, that was where French Frank’s is now, is that right? The Pack and Cullifords building there.
Jane: I think he did both.
Simon: Ok.
Jane: Yeah, if you can probably remember … or you know more than I do, is when they moved across the road. Not quite sure what year that was.
Simon: That was when they had the Elizabeth Packs as well wasn’t it?
Jane: Yeah. I think he would have done more of the building that’s currently going to be the Department. I imagine he was there a bit more.
Simon: Ok. ‘Cos that was originally … Woods and …
Jane: Wilkins.
Simon: Yes.
Jane: Which I can’t remember, to be honest.
Simon: Which sounds like an amazing shop.
Jane: Yeah, it does.
Simon: It’s like sort of Hurst’s on speed I think (laughs).
Jane: Hurst’s on speed, yeah it’s true.
8 minutes 5 seconds
Simon: So, that’s interesting. When I’ve looked at the French Frank’s one, it sort of looks like it was separate buildings at one point, but of course that was all one Department Store.
Jane: It must have been. I can’t remember an awful lot about that building. I remember where the Department is going to go where that was. I remember the big, lovely staircase that went up and then the Bridal Department which was incredible. You would get, not that I bought one but I know a friend of mine did buy her wedding dress there, and it was the place to go really. Yeah it was sad to see all the wedding dresses still hanging up there when I saw it back about a year ago.
Simon: Ok.
Jane: Yeah, it was a great building. I can’t remember an awful lot about the other one, to be fair.
Simon: So, what are your memories of Elizabeth Packs, the Cross Street one?
Jane: The Cross Street one, I remember coming … because when I was living in Miss Pack, you could cut through the car park. You went in through the back door there to the Shoe Department, which was wonderful, wonderful shoes, and then you’d go down the stairs and there’d be the Hosiery Department right in the front and then up the stairs were the dresses and the Bridal dresses. I often went to The Coffee Bean, which was the Café up there, and I used to meet my friend who worked in Barclays funny enough, and we used to have a jacket potato or a scone and butter and yeah, that was lovely, it was lovely up there. Really lovely ladies and quite successful I believe.
Simon: Scones have come up a lot. Everyone has mentioned ..
Jane: Have they?
Simon: Yeah, everyone has mentioned The Coffee Bean and said, “Oh yeah the scones were great.”
Jane: Yeah they were. I do remember the scones were amazing. I think … for me it was a snack meeting her there, and she would always … I think she used to have a jacket potato or something like that but I do remember the scones were lovely. And it was weird because years later, I … when Fowler’s which was the opposition across the road opened, I was for a while I was the Manager of their little Café upstairs which was called ‘The Pantry’ which was on a similar vein to The Coffee Bean.
10 minutes 31 seconds
Simon: Right. How was the feeling at Fowler’s? How was the relationship between then and the various Packs Stores?
Jane: I remember it as being ok, I really do. I think if I can use the terms, I don’t think Fowler’s was quite a posh as Pack and Cullifords. Along the same vein, Mrs Edwards was the boss there and she would always call us by our surname. I was Simmonds then so I was Miss Simmonds always, so on the same vein as Pack and Cullifords, but I don’t think it was regarded as being quite as upper cut as Pack and Cullifords (laughs).
Simon: And the Café that was Fowlers. That came after The Coffee Bean was there for a while, or do you know?
Jane: I really don’t know. I mean I would have worked there in my early 30s and I can’t remember. I would imagine it had been going for a few years and I only found recently that a friend of mine, older than me but she passed away, she used to manage The Pantry which I had no idea until we were at the funeral and they were talking about the past. But yeah, I don’t know. I imagine it came after. I would think it came after. Much tinier, it was smaller than The Coffee Bean but still successful. Perhaps there was a competition going really (laughs).
12 minutes 7 seconds
Simon: Right, I guess that’s the spirit that’s supposed to elevate all players isn’t it? When you were in The Coffee Bean, having your potato with your friend, we had heard there were occasional Fashion Shows. That models were paid to walk through with outfits to tempt people. Did you experience that?
Jane: I didn’t experience that but yes, I believe there were. I wish I had actually ‘cos that was something to have missed, but yeah, there were but I didn’t experience that one so I can’t tell you anything about that.
Simon: And what was the feeling in The Coffee Bean? What was the atmosphere like?
Jane: It was lovely. Mostly ladies as I remember. I don’t think there were many gents unless there some gents that were dragged up there by their wives when they were buying, but it was lovely and the ladies always recognised you and not by name but I think they used to know in the end what it was you were going to order before you did, but nice cakes as well. I wasn’t a cake person; I was a scone person (laughs).
Simon: That’s good. I mean I guess what catering was like in those days and what it’s like now is … there’s no comparison is there?
Jane: No. It was more laid back, not as quick obviously. I’m guessing they had microwaves then.
Simon: Yeah, I don’t know. When did that sort … the ‘70s they came out maybe.
Jane: They did, so yeah I’m guessing they did bit it was fast enough. I mean obviously my friend Kay would only have an hour for lunch anyway, so we’d zap in and get something and then it had to be fairly quick. But it was very relaxed and totally different to say Costa now or any of those coffee places.
Simon: And you mentioned the Shoe Department.
Jane: Yeah.
14 minutes 2 seconds
Simon: Did you ever have an opportunity for buying stuff there?
Jane: Absolutely. I bought a pair of shoes there, leather shoes which I must say lasted … I mean those days you would have them heeled, soled and heeled. I’m guessing you still can now but a lot of the modern soles on the shoes these days, they’re just throw away aren’t they? Which is very sad. Yeah, I think I bought at least two pairs of shoes. Not sandals, and funny enough I remembered today my dad, my father when he was … I must have still been living in St Helens, and he came home with the most gorgeous summer dress for me, and my mum used to then, that was part of the wife’s department to buy the clothes, but he must have bought one from Pack and Cullifords, very posh, and I remember distinctly it was lime green with white piping, a little bow that did up at the back, and it was sort of … I think it was Egyptian with the pyramids on and little Egyptian figures. And later he bought me a pair of leather sandals from Pack and Cullifords with the peep toe which were all the fashion. I remember they were bright … I think they were bright red (laughs) so then I thought I was the bee’s knees.
Simon: I guess it shows how special item from there were, if you can recall in that detail.
Jane: Yeah, I’ve got a photo somewhere. I must have only been 6 or 7, and think I wore it for my school photo. We had a special photo in those days and it’s as clear as anything. As soon as I saw it I thought, ‘Oh my God, I remember that dress’ but it is weird as you say. Most distinct. I can’t really remember any of my other clothes that I … I think he might have bought me a bathing costume there as well, with the little frills round the bottom, which was all the rage for young girls then, but it was very special and it lasted … the quality, I mean I grew out of it rather than you know threw it away and bought another one. It was , yeah, I clearly, clearly remember that dress.
16 minutes 13 seconds
Simon: So, that was at sort 6 and 7, you being presented with it rather than going in.
Jane: Yes, dad came home with it. Goodness knows how he knew the size.
Simon: That was my first thought yes.
Jane: He was not a very demonstrative father. He was loving, but not … I mean how he knew what size to get I don’t know but he did. And he did with the shoes as well, so whether he asked mum I don’t know (laughs).
Simon: And when you were buying the shoes for yourself, what sort of age were you then?
Jane: I would be late 20s I guess, and the shoes were built to last then. I don’t think they were ‘going out’ shoes. They were work, sensible shoes, but they used to have beautiful shoes, really lovely. Probably as good … there was another shop still going, Russell and Bromley, used to be in Union Street and Jones the Bootmaker, but they were as good as those. They were very specific and always different which was good.
Simon: I was wondering what led you to buy them there rather than another shop.
Jane: I think a) it was handy because I just could pop down the road, through the Shoe Department, try them on and the … I don’t know who worked in the Shoe Department then but they were always really helpful and I don’t think you felt … I think because it was out the back, I was always conscious because I’ve got big feet, so if you’re in a big, wide, open Shoe Shop trying on shoes, there it wasn’t, it was sort of in the back, more enclosed, so I wasn’t quite so much on display (laughs) maybe that’s the reason, I don’t know. But the quality was always good at Pack and Cullifords.
Simon: And did you remember the shoes in as much detail as the dress?
18 minutes 3 seconds
Jane: I can’t no, and that’s weird isn’t it because I remember something when I was 6 or 7 but I can’t remember in my late 20s, but no I can’t remember them at all.
Simon: I guess when you’re 6, you get a dress once every 5 years whereas …
Jane: It’s quite true. Especially something that was that special, that’s it’s not something mum’s bought in. I don’t know. I don’t decry Woolworths. We weren’t very well off so it was probably … it might have been a couple of hand-me-downs and something from a cheaper shop shall we say.
Simon: And you mentioned sandals?
Jane: My sandals, yeah. Dad bought me those.
Simon: That was when you were young still.
Jane: That’s when I was about the same age, 6 or 7. I don’t think I ever bought any sandals in Pack and Cullifords. No, I’m sure I didn’t. But those were … all the young girls had them then. They were all peep toe with the ankle strap and the leather has a cut out design. You’re too young to remember Simon.
Simon: I think I know. Little holes punched in them.
Jane: That’s it, yeah. They were those, and because they were bright red, I mean that was stunning.
Simon: What about other places, other shopping you did at Elizabeth Packs?
Jane: Other sorry?
Simon: Other shopping you might have done there.
Jane: Um, hosiery. I bought all my tights there.
Simon Why there?
Jane: I don’t know. I think it was the quality and they used to last. Yeah, it must have been the quality, and they weren’t cheap compared to other shops that you’d go to but all of that I bought there. I bought … I didn’t know I was thinking I bought a swimming costume but I don’t think I did. I would definitely go in the Sales, just in case, and I remember my friend Liz, said she bought a bright red duffle coat that was in the window in the Sale that had her name on it, and that would have been even in the Sale quite expensive. I don’t think she said she’s still got it actually.
Simon: Oh really.
Jane: I think so (laughs).
20 minutes 4 seconds
Simon: And what was the perception of the shop then?
Jane: The perception from my …?
Simon: Yeah, the general population, what did they …?
Jane: I think … I don’t know how to say that. Yeah, it was … I think it was probably generally thought that you weren’t well off but you certainly weren’t working class to shop there. And that’s not to say if you were working class and you went into the shop you were treated in any way different from anyone else, but I think probably, yeah, you were thinking more of the upper, middle to upper class would shop in Pack and Cullifords. Yeah, maybe. I’m might have got that wrong but from my perception probably that’s what I would say.
Simon: So, if you had said to somebody that I’ve just bought some new shoes from Pack and Cullifords or from Elizabeth Pack, they’d be ‘oooh.’
Jane: I think they would. Yes, they’d be most impressed. Maybe that’s the thing. Buy things there to be impressed, but I know my friend Kay bought several … not long before they closed, evening dresses there, and she said they were such an amazing choice. And for us as youngsters as well, it was an adventure to go off the Island on the Ferry to the shop in Portsmouth and you see you’ve got a larger selection there, and I guess I used to think then, even in my late 20s that it was the older generation more that shopped in Packs but that wasn’t true really because as I say all the brides would go there.
Simon: Well, I guess that’s … they must have seen and picked up on that and hence the Miss Packs and maybe that type of clothing …
Jane: I think you’re right.
Simon: … Groovy, 60s, whatever phrases used to be used then …
Jane: I think you’re right. It would have been 70s, 80s even I expect, so maybe they realised there was a market there for the younger generation. Yeah, that could possibly be right. A bit like Marks and Spencer’s now.
22 minutes 11 seconds
Simon: Right. That didn’t mix with the other stock that they had.
Jane: Not that I can remember. No, I can’t remember that.
Simon: There was one other … Christine I spoke to. She was saying that she had thought … she used to do the windows there, and amazing descriptions of stuff they used to put in them, and she wondered whether Miss Packs, the colours that were there, then I guess it’s part of the time as well, started to influence the clothes that were available in Elizabeth Packs.
Jane: Possibly. Yeah, I do remember the colours, so she’s probably right there. It was always very colourful. It was never bland colours or pastel colours even. It would always be brighter colours and modern, with it. But classy (laughs).
Simon: And you were saying somebody you knew had bought a wedding dress. Did they describe the experience?
Jane: My bestie, Kay. Yeah, she said she bought her wedding dress. I won’t go into any more detail. That was for her first wedding (laughs).
Simon: Ok.
Jane: But yeah, she said that’s where you went. She went with her mum and I think her mum bought her mother of the bride costume as well. I think that was generally the thing. Brides would go and get their bridal dresses and the mum’s would go along and buy their dresses and probably the aunties as well. I mean the only other option was if you went to … it was Alders in those days. If you went to Portsmouth it was Alders and then later Debenhams but Pack and Cullifords would be the place.
Simon: And we’d heard of shoes being dyed to be the same colour as different outfits …
Jane: Really. I hadn’t heard of that one. But I must say obviously there was a Dabells in Newport wasn’t there? And my other friend (coughs) Pam, did her apprenticeship there. She worked there for a year when she was … I think she was still at school. She went on to be a Maternity Nurse, but she remembered that really well, so yeah.
24 minutes 25 seconds
Simon: Let’s go back to your dad … because your dad’s involved because … the detail of the work that he did we possibly can’t recall, is that right?
Jane: I can’t recall that, no.
Simon: But he was involved with … I mean this is something that quite a few people have mentioned to us, is the floats that that they used to have for various Parades. Do you remember some details about those?
Jane: I do remember the one which I thought I was imagining but I obviously wasn’t. It was of a cage with models inside with different costumes on. I can’t even remember if it was furs or whatever which these days would not be very politically correct, but I know I remember they were quite glamourous models and they were dressed up inside this cage. I do remember there was the Concord, they did one year and I’m sure my dad must have been involved in that as well, but it’s amazing to think that Pack and Cullivers and David Guy was paying someone to do a float. In those days probably very good advertising.
Simon: I was thinking yeah, it’s sort of what would be called a Marketing Budget these days.
Jane: Yeah, very and pretty good Marketing ‘cos you’d go round … obviously the Carnivals were always held in the summer, so you wouldn’t just have the Islanders there, you would have a whole floods of tourists that would come just for the Carnivals. So yeah, very good Marketing ploy, so dad must have done it quite well. I hope it worked.
26 minutes 4 seconds
Simon: And do you remember him constructing them or …?
Jane: I don’t know.
Simon: Ok.
Jane: No, no I don’t.
Simon: I guess yeah, I mean …
Jane: And I’m wondering where he would have done it.
Simon: Right.
Jane: Because he had a very small Workshop and Shop in Haylands, not far from where we lived, but he didn’t have a big yard, so I’m wondering where they would have constructed those.
Simon: Yeah, I guess … how interesting the general public walking past. “What are you doing building a cage?” (laughs).
Jane: Yes. quite so. That’s weird. It’s a shame I can’t remember. Perhaps someone else will jog the memory.
Simon: The photos I’ve seen of the cage, it looks substantial.
Jane: As in how huge?
Simon: Oh, as in 7 foot across by 3 or 4 foot. But you know solid bars. I mean I guess they were wooden rather than metal.
Jane: On no, they would have been wooden. ‘Cos dad was a chippy, a Carpenter he trained originally so yeah. And you asked about the work, I think I mean it would have been anything from replacing woodwork to painting anything that looked a bit shabby and needed a lick of paint or any repairs at all. Dad was your man. Mr Simmonds, Leonard Simmonds, Builders of Ryde.
Simon: (laughs).
Jane: On the side of his lorry, I remember it.
Simon: You don’t know if he did the conversion from when it was Woods and Wilkins?
Jane: No. I would imagine not. I imagine that was, yeah, I don’t think it was any substantial work. Not large changes like that. I wouldn’t bet against it but I really don’t think so. No, I think he was more of a … let’s call Len, something needs … Mr Simmonds, sorry, not Len, something needs a lick of paint or something needs repairing or you know we’re going to make a cupboard there, I’d imagine that sort of work is what dad did.
Simon: That’s a great line to have isn’t it for somebody who calls you up and asks you to do bits of work?
Jane: It does, yeah. Yes, excellent.
28 minutes 16 seconds
Simon: And on that … you brought a sort of Accounts Book in today.
Jane: Yeah, I found … I don’t know why because I didn’t know I was going to be doing this. I found in dad’s belongings, it was his old Accounts Book, handwritten as you can see, completely falling to bits, and I found a bill in the back for 1960, so I would imagine it was very early ‘60s, and Mr Guy’s name is in it as David Guy, not David …
Simon: Oh, controversial (laughs).
Jane: … ‘P and C’ and Pack and Cullifords so yeah, so it just shows that he kept a log of everything. He did have an Accountant but I’m guessing that was his Log.
Simon: I guess, I mean the way it’s written out with figures and a sort of paper version of a spreadsheet (laughs).
Jane: It was. Yes, exactly what it is. I mean my father had lovely handwriting, much better than mine, and it obviously stands the test of time. It’s really good. A bit yellowy now …
Simon: We’ll take some snaps of those if that’s ok?
Jane: Yeah, could do. I’ve noticed that he’s actually included my mum in there, so obviously he used to give …
Simon: Oh, as a client.
Jane: (laughs). He would give her spending money.
Simon: Ok.
Jane: But ‘P and C’ there, so that’s obviously Pack and Cullifords. Yeah, it was interesting.
Simon: Great. Well, is there any other memories you have or people or friends have spoken about in the past about the shops?
Jane: No, I can’t think of any others. I mean it’s amazing when you do speak to friends now and they will often say, “Oh yes, I bought so and so in Pack and Cullifords.” For instance, as I say, my friend Liz that bought the bright red duffle coat and it stands out. Any number of people that would have shopped there be it for hosiery or swimming costumes or wedding dresses, anything that big, yeah that’s it. That’s it for my memories. You’ve bled me dry Simon (laughs).
Simon: That’s fantastic. Thank you very much for your time.
Jane: You’re very welcome.
Interview ends.
30 minutes 25 seconds
