Simon: My name is Simon Perry, I’m here for the ‘Packs’ People’ oral history project. I’m in Ryde on the Isle of Wight and we’re here for a second session with Christine. Christine, can you give us your full name?
Christine: Yes, my full name is Christine Fisher-Lathwell and I’m here to speak to Simon about my time as a Window Dresser at Pack’s, Elizabeth Pack and Pack and Cullifords.
Simon: I think where we got to last time, was the point where you had just gone to London and then from memory you were saying that you’re in 5th Avenue shops up in the sort of Chelsea area. Is that right?
Christine: Yes, and in central London where the 5th Avenue is down Regent Street so I worked in Regent Street and at the bottom is Aquascutum. I worked there for a while with a boyfriend who was a Window Dresser and then back up to Selfridges and Bond Street, so those were the things that I was doing in London during my time there.
Simon: And you decided that a change of circumstances … I think the Display Manager left didn’t he and you thought, ‘ok, I’m going to head back to the Isle of Wight now.’
Christine: Yes, I went back to the Island. I’m just trying to work it out. I got the jobs in central London so I’d done all that by the time I decided to come home again. Yes, and that’s when I came back to the Island and spent the summer doing beach photography.
Simon: Oh right, for people on holiday, doing snaps.
Christine: Never done anything like that before but it was fun.
Simon: What put that in your head?
2 minutes 1 second
Christine: There was an advertisement in the County Press for a Beach Photographer and it just said, ‘no need for training, I will train’ and a local Photographer Mr Woods, he just employed people to walk along the Sea Front, Ryde Esplanade, right the way to Puckpool and back again just going up and snapping people and giving them a ticket, so we’d come back to a kiosk and then he would come down around about 12 o’clock and collect all the films and everything and then somebody else would come on duty for the afternoon and they would give the photographs out to the people that came back. It was a great job, got a fantastic suntan, tanned on one side walking up and tanned on the other coming back (laughs).
Simon: Yeah, do you remember the techniques he taught you?
Christine: He didn’t.
Simon: Oh, go and snap.
Christine: He just said, “Click.” And I don’t remember him complaining about my photographs. My dad was an amateur photographer and taught me a little bit about exposures and things like that but to be honest it didn’t go in (laughs) and the camera I was given was just like an Instamatic so didn’t have to worry about you know, weather and things like that. But it did, again it taught me something really interesting which was how to frame a picture, which is exactly the same as Display, so …
Simon: So, that was the summer, glorious tanning summer.
Christine: Yes.
Simon: So, did you return to one of the Pack’s shops?
Christine: I did, yes. Mr Guy, in fact I think he got in touch with mum and said that some people that I’d been in to see in Pack’s had said that I was home, and wondered if I was interested because they were short of Window Dressers, and so I came back, I think it was more on a sort of like a trial as such, but I just stayed. And then I went …
4 minutes 21 seconds
Simon: Do you know which year that was?
Christine: I’m trying to work out, if I left school in ’64, I think that would have been about ’66 I would think. I’d been up there 2 years, yes.
Simon: And what did you notice had changed? Had anything changed to the shop in the meantime?
Christine: I think Miss Pack had opened. I still didn’t check what year that was. It’s just hard to remember, it’s so long. There seemed to be a lot more work. Oh, hang on, that was Mr Creasey I think we had then who was the Display Manager. He was very structured and organised so the windows were slightly different. They had less in the way of themes, more in the way of posters that would hang at the back because he would order posters or he would make up posters with Deann the lady that did the drawings. He would get her to draw out a summer theme and then he would get that printed at the Printers so everything was very … much more structured than I’d had before, so we weren’t given a free hand to do what we liked. That was quite difficult you know because I’d been used to sort of deciding for myself what I wanted to do.
6 minutes 3 seconds
Simon: How did you adjust to that then?
Christine: I suppose I didn’t really. I just underneath I didn’t actually feel that I got on very well although we didn’t ever have any arguments. There was a young lad called Derek, who came to do Display who I was able to teach so I could mentor him, and so it was like having, you know a young child teaching them something which was great fun. What I’m trying to work out is … I thought I went back up to London for about 6 months after that which would have been the winter of ‘66, ’67.
Simon: Ok.
Christine: And then came back. I worked for a Jewish group of people who had shops in various suburbs in London and so I would go to Hainault, back to Ealing but mainly, and it was part-time so I was finding it really difficult to find the rent and some friends of mine came to stay with me in North London and so we were able to share the rent. That was good, but it gradually got to be summer time again. The Jewish family that I worked for sold a lot of off the peg clothes because that was their mainstream. I think they bought from India a lot of things from India, but there wasn’t a great deal of display because most of the window space was taken up with lots and lots of garments all placed and it was a nightmare getting in and out because the window wasn’t that particularly big. Some of the shops had bigger windows but they really hadn’t got time for me to do what I class as a decent display. It was just in, out, change the window once a week, and after a while, about a year I think I came back here in the beginning of ’68, and then started working again. Oh, no I didn’t. It wasn’t ‘till I … I then met my husband, that’s right. We met at the Disco Blue … sorry I can’t remember the name of it, the Halland Hotel in Seaview has a Discotheque. I met my husband there, Brian. He was from London. We hit it off and decided to go to Weymouth to his parents, found a flat together. By that time, we were engaged and then we probably had the most unexciting wedding ever, with just his mum and dad, my mum, my dad couldn’t get the time from Radio Rentals to come to my wedding on that day (laughs) and we got married and went on a 7s 6d Mystery Tour round Weymouth. But that’s beside the point. I then didn’t start doing display again until I’d had my two boys and my daughter, so that would have been 1979 she was born, so 1980 I once again applied for the position at Pack’s. Blinking fly, buzz off.
10 minutes 9 seconds
Simon: And was it the same people at Pack’s?
Christine: Yes, everyone was still there, Mr Moody, Mrs Moody, Miss Guy. By then Miss Guy had had Timothy, and I can’t remember when Timothy was born, but he was … and Mrs Barrow had opened up Pack’s by then so …
Simon: The one in Cross Street.
Christine: Yes. I don’t know what year that opened, but I know that I had my children and so I had to do part-time, these windows and those windows, and work with Jenny and Sue Arthur who we haven’t been able to get hold of. Sue Arthur was the Display Manager who came from Portsmouth. Would have been around the 1980s I would think, and Jenny Gardner worked as well.
Simon: And Jenny we met at the Library is that right?
Christine: We did, we met Jenny yes. I do wish that she’d been able to tell you some of her funny stories because she remembers a lot more than me. I was a bit Miss Goody Two Shoes, I didn’t do anything naughty unless Jen said we could (laughs).
Simon: So, I mean quite a lot of time had passed between … sort of 20 years I guess, between you … is it 20? No, 15.
Christine: About 15 years yes since I first started working there.
Simon: So, the fashions in window displays had changed?
Christine: Oh totally, yes, all sorts of things. Mrs Barrow was definitely keeping up even more by buying from various places where the latest fashions were in, so people came to expect Mrs Barrow to have the colours that were in that Spring and the shapes because all the shapes of the clothes changed completely. You know from one moment you’d be wearing lots of things with darts in and the next minute you’d be wearing like a sack cloth shape.
Simon: Right.
Christine: So they were just so different.
12 minutes 54 seconds
Simon: So, the clothes had changed as you said they’d become sort of misshapen or they were sort of just large, big shoulders and then loose everything else.
Christine: That was a little bit later but there were periods of time when things were Mary Quant style. Lots of coats tended to be shaped like that so you had …
Simon: Like a sort of cut-off triangle. A triangle with the top cut off.
Christine: Yes, and the sleeves were a little wider, but through the ‘70s they’d been very much a nod to the ‘70s, hippy look where everything was flowery. So, yes the fashions had changed a lot and it was so exciting when I bought my first Mary Quant alligator raincoat. It was in white PVC with black PVC trims round it.
Simon: Oh wow!
Christine: I was so proud of it, then I left it behind in the flat that I shared and I think one of my friends probably picked it up (laughs) but didn’t give it back to me. Shame. Yes, so the shapes, I mean you’d go midi, mini, maxi for lengths and that applied to older women as well. You know, lots of older women shortened their skirt lengths during the ‘60s, not to miniskirts but just to the knee, and then it would turn into the ‘70s and it became midi length, and then maxi length. So yeah, there was a lot of change. A lot of change in the materials used as well. I got quite a bit of experience using … in shops that sold materials taught me …
14 minutes 50 seconds
Simon: You were saying the materials were different.
Christine: Yes, everything … for instance I mean I remember polyester coming in in the ‘60s so everything was advertised as ‘drip dry’ and then there would be gradually a mixture of poly and cotton because a lot of people didn’t like the sort of sweating that polyester gave you, and crimplene. I remember crimplene, awful material. My mum used to wear it (laughs). Again, it was very hot because it was basically plastic, polyester is plastic, and then I think gradually there was a move to more natural materials so you’d have a mix of polycotton which was more suitable I think, especially if you were very hot. And the clothes, there tended to be a lead by the teenagers in what would be in fashion so whatever came to Miss Pack’s we would gradually find that if it was yellow and pink that were in, then the clothes from Mrs Barrow would appear in those colours as well.
16 minutes 18 seconds
Simon: What was the delay from Miss Pack to the colours changing?
Christine: I don’t know. There was a lady who bought clothes for Miss Pack as well as Miss Guy, a Mrs Connett, and she was the Manageress of Miss Pack, so she really did keep her eye. She was an older lady but very, very with it when it comes to clothes.
17 minutes 9 seconds
Christine: Mrs Connett, she was a lady in her sort of 50s or 60s but she just knew what was in fashion and she always dressed very fashionably, so I think probably Mrs Barrow may have taken Mrs Connett with her to buy clothes, and then looked at what Mrs Connett had bought. I’m not saying that Mrs Barrow copied, it’s just that it took a while for the things, the colours that youngsters were wearing. For instance if they wore bright orange and brown, it just took a while for that to trickle through into the main clothing, unless it was of course that Mrs Barrow had bought her things and they didn’t come as quickly as Miss Pack’s ‘cos I remember Miss Pack’s used to get a lot of deliveries very quickly once a week and I would often help, even though I was doing the window, I would often help them bring the things in, you know to hang up, so whether it’s just the style of buying I don’t know. I would hate to hint that Pack’s followed Miss Pack but they did pick up on the trends of colours, definitely.
18 minutes 46 seconds
Simon: What did they do when the sort of punk times around? Did they follow those fashions at all, ‘cos that was such a turning over of the tables wasn’t it?
Christine: I think I was out of it during that period of time because when we got married, we went up to London to run the Coleherne so I wasn’t window dressing during that time, but I would imagine that if Sue Arthur was there when I came to Pack’s, she tended to dress in a slightly ‘punky’ way, pink hair and various things like that so I don’t know if Mrs Barrow would have liked that as a theme, but I’m sure they would have had it up in Miss Pack. Veruschka was the name of the model that I said that was like a spider with big hair.
Simon: Oh yes.
Christine: I know they bought some much more modern models for Pack’s and Elizabeth Pack, much more versatile, but I don’t know if they would have got … probably Jenny would have known because she was there during the period of time that I wasn’t, so she would know. In fact, I could always send you a message to say that … you never know, she might agree to an interview if you need it. She can really tell you more about that period when I was having children and the kids were sort of like just beginning to go to Nursery and then I was pregnant with Laura, so up until 1979, I wasn’t there. And then I had to look after them for some years, so I’m trying to remember if I went … I went to Hill’s of Ryde the Material Department Store and then I just can’t remember what date I came back to Pack’s.
Simon: And I remember you describing the way of laying out windows before when you were talking about the triangle and layering within the window. With the change in fashions to the early ‘80s, did that change the way that windows were dressed or did that same basic layout ride through it?
Christine: I think it did because you could … without making it to absolute triangle, you could experiment by … you could maybe get a child model and put in to hold the hands of one of the grown-up models. When the Bridal Wear went in in Mrs Barrows big dress window, the Bridal Wear often there were Children’s models there from the Children’s window wearing little Brides Maids dress so you could change the depth of it, even if you brought it slightly out by putting a child there by an adult …
22 minutes 5 seconds
Simon: Ok, yeah.
Christine: … and then another child the other end. But as long as it wasn’t too rigid, it was fluid, much more fluid so that as I say it needed to have a depth and forward window dressing. You could even change it by having a large notice right in the middle of the group, saying, “Pack and Cullifords Sale Starts at such and such a time.” The type of display I don’t think changed, but as people got better and better at it, the people that stayed there, they began to understand how it should be dressed, but I don’t think that triangular look … because it basically covers the whole window except for the area either side of the top of the window, which was where the spotlights were, so you had to be very careful about putting anything up … you know the spotlights would shine on because they could cause a fire, so that triangle would be you know apexed at the top with one model. You might put a model high on a pedestal and then have a group of them coming down. It’s just always goes back to the triangle and I don’t know if that’s anything to do with the way the earth was built (laughs). I just don’t know.
Simon: Right, well it’s just a sort of pleasing shape or …
Christine: It is but it’s always been that shape whenever I’ve done it. Maybe I’m boring, maybe there should be rectangular windows.
Simon: Well, that sounds more boring than a triangle (laughs). You came back, you were saying it’s the same people sort of 15 years later still working in the shop.
24 minutes 4 seconds
Christine: Yes, some of the same people were still there. I think Mrs Brown had gone from the Children’s Department. I think she had a nervous breakdown I think, and then gradually they introduced YTS girls, Youth Training Scheme girls who worked with myself and Jenny in the windows, and also they worked in the Departments as well. Some in the Sewing Department, some in the Dress Department, so there were some retained Staff. I know Miss Keeling and Mrs Drawbridge as far as I knew were still there, and all the people in the Sewing Room who didn’t ever seem to go home at night (laughs). Well, so many things to do with the amount of alterations that people did.
Simon: Had the number of shops reduced? ‘Cos I remember you saying Seaview and all over the Island …
Christine: Yarmouth and Totland …
Simon: Had they got less by the ‘80s or was it still the same number?
Christine: I don’t think so, no, but I think that … but I don’t remember when Elizabeth Pack opened. Because I was only part-time I wasn’t given that outlying shops to do because I always had to be finished by 3 pm because the children would come home from school, so as far as I know, I seem to remember eventually maybe the Totland shop closed and possibly Morgan’s in Cowes, Mr Guy’s shop, but I’m not sure. That’s not a definite, but I just don’t seem to remember them being there.
Simon: But the Cross Street one was opened at that time, so that was no longer Woods and Wilkins.
Christine: No, it wasn’t.
Simon: That it was then part of the empire.
26 minutes 4 seconds
Christine: Yes, they were building an empire really, so I’m pretty certain Shanklin was still there. I remember them talking about the Delivery Man having to go to Yarmouth and Seaview was definitely still there. I think Jenny lived in Nettlestone so she used to do the Seaview windows I think. So, I think the only one that had possibly gone is Totland and maybe Morgan’s a little bit later. It was more yachting things they sold you know and that was Mr Guy’s interest as well so … I just didn’t go over there anymore so I didn’t get to see what happened. I’m pretty certain Miss Pack was still there. I really need to know when it opened and when it closed.
Simon: We’ll dig through and find out. There’s someone who’s done a timeline of it all, so …
Christine: I hope so because it definitely … I’m sure Miss Pack would have brought them in a lot of money because everybody went to Miss Pack on Saturdays.
Simon: Can you talk a little bit about Miss Pack then? I remember you touching on it before, and saying it was a popular hangout.
Christine: Yeah, it was fun really. The one thing we always tried to persuade Mrs Connett to do is to have a Coffee Bar upstairs but she wasn’t allowed to do anything. But she did become ill if I remember rightly. I think she had heart trouble and we didn’t see her for a while, so it could be that Miss Pack perhaps didn’t have the lifeblood that it needed, and possibly that’s when they decided to close it, but I thought it was still open when Elizabeth Pack opened. But Miss Pack was great because I think the windows were changed every Friday so that on Saturday the people that … the girls would come in with their wages. I can’t remember whether they started selling some boy’s clothes upstairs, teenage boys clothes. And the shop itself I think the layout is probably still the same. It’s an Estate Agent’s just up here off the …
28 minutes 27 seconds
Simon: The Fox’s one is it, Fox and …
Christine: No, it’s opposite Fox’s.
Simon: Ok.
Christine: I was going to say Freeman Hardy and Willis but that’s a Shoe Shop. It’s just opposite the turning to go round to the Newport Road. It’s not Francis Pittis.
Simon: Not to worry.
Christine: Anyway, the layout is probably still the same but the layout had a full-length window. If this is the High Street, it had a full-length window along there and a window that went … that joined onto it without a dividing line that went round the corner as if it was going into the car park. And every week I would undress all of the models and of course they were all different types. We had Veruschka who I mentioned before, we had Pattie Boyd, George Harrison’s girlfriend, you might not have heard of her …
Simon: I don’t know her.
Christine: … but she was a very famous model, and Twiggy and there was one more and I can’t … very tall, was it Naomi Campbell? I think it was Naomi Campbell.
Simon: Oh really, that early?
Christine: Yes, I’m pretty certain she was a black model. And they would all be taken out of the window with a wrap put round them because you weren’t allowed to look in the window with a naked model …
Simon: Even in Miss Pack being the sort of edgy version.
30 minutes
Christine: Even in Miss Pack. Yes, it was the times. And they were taken out because I needed to change the way they looked, so because you had Veruschka doing this and Twiggy doing this kind of thing, there had to be a change in the shape of the window in my eyes, so Veruschka might go in the slightly separate window, and you’d have maybe two models like a black and a white model and eventually I think they bought Adele Rootstein models, children’s models and they bought quite a lot and so they put some of them up in … we’d put them up in the Miss Pack window wearing teen clothes because we had teenagers as well as children, which was great because there really wasn’t anywhere in Ryde except for Marder’s down Union Street that sold teenage clothes. And then I think there was Colin and Johnny in Shades, which is right next to the Optician, Cancer Research Optician, Dentist and then there’s a kind of Bohemian Boutique down in Ryde which belonged to Johnny and Colin.
Simon: Ok. Is that where the Velvet Pig is now?
Christine: That’s it, Velvet Pig. I couldn’t think of the name of it. Johnny and Colin were the first basically out gays that people knew about in Ryde. They lived together over the shop and they had fantastic taste. They bought the most fabulous outrageous things that people would love to wear. Definitely very hippy, and so you could always rely on them to have something in that line. So, thankfully Miss Pack also sort of went into the hippy trend, and by the time I got back there, there was still quite a lot of hippy clothes around, and it really wasn’t … I mean I say I wasn’t in the punk era but I don’t remember them selling ‘punky’ clothes. They did sell ripped jeans and I’m sure that came … when Madonna came in, ripped jeans, denim jackets with lots of rips in then and patches on them. And as I say, the layout of it, was that you walked into the shop as you’re looking at it on the right-hand side and it stretched right back until I think there was a dividing wall that you could go through either side, and at the back were boutique clothes as well and the most recent clothes were in the front, laid out on I think I remember them as roundelay type …
33 minutes 5 seconds
Simon: Ok.
Christine: … hanging garments so you would spin it round. And then of course I think we had alcoves that you had to put displays in as well. I know it was very, very busy a lot of the time, even during the week. School children would come in at lunch time so I really had to get the window dressed and finished as quickly as possible because if I didn’t they’d play around with the models and try and put their arms in and you know, get them stuck up there. So yes, it was normally finished by lunch time and then it was back down to do a Millinery window.
Simon: So, Johnny and someone’s shop down there.
Christine: Johnny and Colin.
Simon: Johnny and Colin. Was that pre-dated Miss Pack?
Christine: Yes.
Simon: So, do you think they maybe saw that and thought ‘oh there’s a trend happening here, there’s an opportunity.’
Christine: I think so. I think Mrs Connett would have had her eyes open to Johnny and Colin because they were really astute business men and the casualness … I mean they were really the first Boutique we had in Ryde because Miss Pack was there after them, and I don’t remember any other Boutique in Ryde, so I would imagine that probably Mrs Connett used to send somebody down to look and see what John and Colin had, because even amongst the ‘70s the trends changed. You know people would go from flared jeans to kaftans, you know to all sorts of different looks, you know. There were things like string bikinis if I remember rightly. Yes I do think that she was influenced. Whether or not she and Mrs Barrow bought together I don’t know, or whether they went shopping together but bought separately for different stores ‘cos Mrs Barrow had an awful lot to buy for. But I do know that Mrs Connett was always up on the latest trends so I think most of the clothes that Pack’s put in the Carnival would have been from Miss Pack ‘cos it looked to me as if all the sort of things like little Boucle suits with little short jackets and a tight skirt. They eventually did end up down … I think Mrs Barrow may have bought Chanel because it was a fashion copied from Chanel and then Aquascutum and what is it chav’s adopted?
Simon: Burberry.
35 minutes 53 seconds
Christine: Yes, they adopted the Burberry look, yes. There was just so many different fashions happened during those times I was there. And when I say I remember it as clear as day, there are lots of things I didn’t remember but I just remember the things I found lots of fun, like the change of fashion, could I get used to it? I remember going up to London for the day to Kensington and going to what was called Biba Boutique.
Simon: I remember Biba.
Christine: Yes, Barbara Hulanicki owned it, the American.
Simon: Oh, I don’t remember that name. I remember Biba.
Christine: Yes, and it was Barbara Hulanicki, niki, and I’d seen that way that she had the clothes displayed at the time I went in there, when I was in London, I’d seen that she had revolving raincoat coat stands and all the garments would be put in their sizes down to the smallest on coat hangers on one of the hooks, and then the next hook round would have a dress that would go with that particular coat, and so I said to Mrs Connett, “I wonder if we could have that look?” but she ummed and ahhed about it ‘cos she thought it that it was too much like copying Biba but I wanted people to know that we understood display from London, so I didn’t get my coat stands, but she did have a … there was something like arm things that went on to coat … she got bigger display boards for the back of the window because it was open. The Miss Pack window was open but she got me some display boards, or solid ones that were … I can’t remember how they were attached, but we would dress them in a style where they were on a bright coloured coat hanger and the clothes would be draped from that and then a display sort of going like this, you know (laughs). You pulled them out because thankfully that went out.
38 minutes 15 seconds
Christine: The look when I first went into Display was that you got a pin, some nylon thread and you took the hem of a skirt, fastened the nylon thread in and pulled the skirt out as if it was being blown in the breeze. But after a while, after many years, that type of thing went out because it was too difficult for the ladies to get in the window without tripping over the nylon thread, and so I found a method of making the hems of the skirts stand out. I got some fairly sturdy but softish wire and I would poke them down the hem and thread them through the coats, so the coat would be doing that as if it was being blown in the wind. The problem was (laughs) when I started doing that the hems got a slight hole in and of course the dress got ruined, so I had to stop doing that after a while. So, the whole idea of making the clothes move tended to stop. You just felt you couldn’t do it anymore because it was ruining the clothes. I’d forgotten about that style of display, but the wire was a lot easier.
Simon: The idea of the movement is interesting.
Christine: Yes, so you could make the wire go like that at the front and …
Simon: So it wasn’t just a straight line, it had a wiggle in it.
Christine: That’s right, so you got this sort of not pleat but a curved fluted look as the skirt came down, so it was a good idea but it did ruin the clothes so Mrs Barrow told us to stop it.
Simon: I mean that’s a sort of funny story. Can you remember any other funny stories during any of your Pack’s times?
40 minutes 6 seconds
Christine: Only me falling down the stairs. Oh, I did, again (laughs) it really wasn’t funny actually. I think French Frank’s has I think two side windows at the entrance, and we used to dress the side windows and I can remember there was a big coat hook. I stood on a step that they used in the Haberdashery and the step went from under me and I hung on by one finger, dropped down and then bruised my coccyx which has been with me for the rest of my life (laughs), but everybody laughed when I did it. They didn’t realise that actually I’d been really quite hurt. They just thought it was funny. I remember Mary Philips saying to me, “Just seeing you hanging on by one finger on this big hook which eventually gave up.” She said it was hilarious. I wish I could remember funny stories that we … I know Jenny said that we used to hide …
Simon: Oh right.
Christine: … if Mrs Barrow was coming.
Simon: Where was your favourite hiding spot?
Christine: At the back of the window because the displays weren’t bang against the wall so you’d open the door of the window and crawl in behind the display, and then sit there and have a gossip.
Simon: So, you could be seen from the outside but not the inside.
Christine: Sometimes Mrs Barrow would come round and look, peep round ‘cos the window door would be open ‘cos if we left it closed, we’d suffocate and we couldn’t get out (laughs) so I think she’d come on and she’d say, “Are you girls having your tea break?” you know, so yes, she did have a sense of humour, and you’d often see that tongue in cheek humour, especially if … dare I say it, if a customer was being particularly awkward or difficult, she’d come by and she’d go like that. It was a funny look that she gave you and you knew her tongue in her cheek, yes and you just knew that the customer was just being awkward. Many a time seeing people trying to be zipped up in bridal gowns they really didn’t fit.
42 minutes 28 seconds
Simon: Right.
Christine: And Mrs Barrow would be absolutely certain and you could hear her saying, ‘cos she was absolutely determined this bride would have the dress that she’d liked and she’d say, “We have a marvellous Sewing Room here” and they did, “and within a couple of days your dress will be just the right fit for you.” And they did, they were wonderful. I mean I was a bit upset. I hadn’t read it all but there was something written in the … and lots of people wrote ‘I bought my wedding dress from Pack’s’ and they did in the comment. There was somebody there who said they thought the Staff were a bit pompous and that upset me to read that in the book. Now I mean you’ll probably see it when you go in, and I don’t remember them being pompous at all.
Simon: I guess it depends on … we don’t know what’s happened in the person’s life before they’ve written that comment or what’s happened on that day or …
Christine: And sometimes maybe people … because people saw Pack’s as ‘the posh place’ because most of the Staff had nice soft voices and Mrs Barrow was very cultured and so was the family. I think people felt that going into Pack’s was such a step up from what they usually did, that maybe anything like somebody saying, “Can we help you madam?” They may have thought the person was being condescending and I think that’s possibly … I’ve only seen one remark, so I thought you probably just didn’t understand that that‘s the way … I mean if I remember ‘Are You Being Served’ the Grace brothers and the way that … I can’t remember her name but the lady who used to make me laugh, and John Inman …
44 minutes 24 seconds
Simon: Mrs Slocombe wasn’t it?
Christine: Mrs Slocombe yes, and the way that John Inman spoke to customers, it wasn’t quite as overly done as that, it was just a sort of very gentle way and they would call people ‘madam’ so I think a lot of people who hadn’t probably never been into Pack’s before but maybe wanted to buy a wedding dress, would feel that they were in some kind of palace, especially when they were upstairs in this Pack’s here.
Simon: The French Frank’s one.
Christine: Yes, the French Frank’s Pack’s because it was a big circle and you went through a doorway into the Bridal Department and it was just packed with Bridal wear and Bridal dresses. And things for the mother sand of course a lot of people might be surprised that they had to pay a little bit extra for that, but that was Pack’s, that’s what Pack and Cullifords were. They sold the best quality coats and dresses and Bridal wear, and so you know, although those days a wedding probably only cost about £500 to about £1000. June Langdon who worked with Mrs Barrow, I’m not sure where June is now. She was very quiet and kind and made people feel at ease.
Simon: What did she do? Run the wedding …
45 minutes 55 seconds
Christine: She basically was Mrs Barrow’s right-hand girl really. June Langdon, she married Ray Langdon of the Langdon Builders so what I must do is look up Langdon’s the Builders and see if Ray is still the owner, ‘cos he and June were married for a long time. When the advertisement about the saying about ‘dressing ladies’ came up there was a picture of three ladies who worked with her and June wasn’t in it, so at some point I think after I left Pack’s and became … oh, I did leave Pack’s but only because Fowler’s needed a Display Manager for Dabells and Fowler’s and I wanted to up my game because my daughter had then started Junior School and the boys were starting to go to Secondary and so I went and became their Display Manager.
Simon: So, that was Fowlers three doors down?
Christine: Yes, Fowlers, yeah.
Simon: That was the sort of other Department Store in Ryde.
Christine: It was the rival really. They never quite matched Pack’s for quality. Pack’s had the quality, Fowler’s was more … basically materials and fairly reasonable clothing. Eventually they picked a teenage Boutique to put in there but that wasn’t until I had been there for a while. And then of course I lost my job because it burnt down.
Simon: Right. That was ’81 wasn’t it, the fire?
Christine: Yes it was, and I still did Dabells but had problems with the lady that owned it. Not just personal, personally I didn’t hit it off with her, and so I left there.
48 minutes 2 seconds
Simon: What was it like then … what was the reaction to you saying, “I’m off to Fowlers.”
Christine: I think Mr Guy may have gone, “Oh, not again” (laughs). I tried so hard to explain why. I think they understood that I was doing part-time and they couldn’t offer me any more part-time, and I needed to have what I’d class as a ‘career’ because the children were growing up and I needed to bring in full weeks wages rather than part-time money, so I’m hoping they understood. They always used to stop and chat to me. Mrs Barrow would come and speak to me if I met mum in The Coffee Bean in Elizabeth Pack and all the girls would all say, “Oh, how’s it going?” you know so I didn’t sense there was any resentment, and also I think Sue Arthur was there and Jenny and Jenny had I think two other girls working with her, so they really didn’t need me. I was just being kept on I think because I came in part-time you know. So no, I don’t remember any resentment, I just remember them always being kind and always chatting to me. And I remember Mrs Elizabeth Guy, that was David Guy’s mum. She was so lovely. She used to model the clothes. Very, very slim. I think she had a voice that would be an elocution voice. She was very well-spoken and beautifully presented, and sometimes she would come and sit and have a coffee with me when mum had gone, and I used to think ‘oh, that’s so lovely’ that she would actually do that you know.
50 minutes 5 seconds
Simon: Talking of The Coffee Bean, what are your memories of The Coffee Bean?
Christine: It was what are probably still there up the back stirs or up the front stairs which I’m hoping are still there, and through the Dress Department into a lovely sunny area at the back of the Second Floor. There was Elizabeth, an Irish lady who ran it, and almost everybody and their mother would come in there for coffee between 10 and12 o’clock and a lot of people would stay for lunch. They didn’t have a massive menu, but they had home-baked scones and cakes and they would do things, salads and Ploughman’s Lunches, quiche Lorraine, so you could have lunch there. I can’t remember whether they had a lot of cooked things, I don’t think they did, and it was just ‘the place’ that you met your relatives, and of course a lot of people …
Simon: Oh it was literally everyone and their mums.
Christine: Yes, everybody and their mums.
Simon: I thought it was just a sort of phrase meaning everyone but it was …
Christine: No, it was just so lovely, and eventually guys started coming in with their wives and boyfriends would come in, you know with girlfriends and I think eventually Fowlers opened up their Coffee Lounge at the top, so I think we probably lost a little bit of trade to them , but I know for the first few years it was very, very popular. They employed three models I think to wear the clothes and then walk amongst the tables showing off their clothes. I remember my mum went to drink her tea and her hands were quite shaky, so she went to put her cup down, and it went ‘phht’ like that and we just prayed that the lady walking by in the clothes didn’t get splashed tea on her clothes, and in the end I had to go up and say to the lady that was modelling, “I’ve just got to look at the back of your dress” (laughs). Thankfully it was alright, but they were taking a risk I think having people walking round, especially you know when they’re eating and drinking.
52 minutes 31 seconds
Simon: It’s such a smart idea.
Christine: Yes, absolutely brilliant.
Simon: It’s like a moving window isn’t it?
Christine: And also you also walked through the Dress Department to get to The Coffee Bean. You could go up the stairs at the back but most people liked to feel they were ‘Audrey Hepburn’ walking up the banister stairs. It was so grand. They are still there are they?
Simon: I think they might be going you know?
Christine: Oh, what a shame! Oh, that is such a shame. I suppose maybe if they have to put a lift in or something ‘cos I heard them saying something about a lift.
Simon: Maybe it’s connected to that.
Christine: Oh dear, what a shame. Just made you feel so grand going up them. I mean of course there would be a lot of places that you would need space if Pack’s as it is going to become, is to become an area for lots of different people isn’t it? So, you would need that space. It just seemed that it was just part of that building, you know it was so very grand.
Simon: Was that there during the Woods and Wilkins days or was that added?
Christine: Well you could, go upstairs but I don’t remember it being a grand staircase. I think they extended it because I remember it being a smaller staircase. I think I’m right on that. I don’t know if you’ve got anybody in your group of people that might remember Woods and Wilkins better than me.
Simon: Not sure. Haven’t really considered that.
54 minutes 8 seconds
Christine: ‘Cos it was such a long time ago.
Simon: And when you came back and it was then Woods and Wilkins was then Elizabeth Pack, what was your reaction to it? I mean you were so …
Christine: I was shocked, I didn’t know it was there. Mum hadn’t said to me. “Oh, they’ve opened up a new Department Store across the road.” You know mum would, have told me in her letters you know, but she didn’t, and I came back and there it was, Elizabeth Pack, and I was so pleased when I actually got my job back the third time because it would mean that I could then go and use al the new models that they’d bought from Rootstein and it was great, you know. Yeah, it was a real shock to see it. It just felt so grand. I didn’t actually realise that it was three stories high. I didn’t know that when Woods and Wilkins were there. You just didn’t get that impression. Am I right in thinking that Woods and Wilkins went the whole length of …
Simon: I think there were some shops on the side.
Christine: Yes, so Pack’s must have taken over the one that’s now turned into a Café. Oh no, they couldn’t have done ‘cos that would still be there. No, I don’t know what shop it was. I remember Jenny saying that there was a Men’s window …
Simon: Yes.
Christine: … in Pack’s.
Simon: To the left wasn’t it?
Christine: And then there were two other windows and then a side window if I remember rightly. I don’t think we had anything at the back.
Simon: And when you walked in to what was Woods and Wilkins, the Elizabeth Pack shop, what did you walk in to? The stairs were ahead of you …
Christine: Yeah, that sense of grandeur. That was the first thing I remember seeing, in green and gold.
56 minutes 5 seconds
Simon: As was there anything … what was on the Ground Floor? What were they selling down there?
Christine: I think if I remember rightly it was coats, but it must have been Coats and Dresses because … unless the dresses were upstairs with the Bridal. Oh dear, oh I know the Bridal was definitely upstairs. I’m thinking that she may have had the brand names coats downstairs possibly the ones that would attract like Dior and Chanel, with a range if dresses I think so if you went in, supposing this is the stairs, there was something on this side of the stairs and then you would go round as if you were going towards the back, which I think was Shoes at the very back, and I think that on one side there were possibly suits and coats and on this side dresses, but what I can’t remember was whether she had the more reasonable things downstairs and the more expensive upstairs ‘cos I’m trying to think how that would work in terms of attracting people, because there might be people who came into Pack’s and feel a little bit intimidated and might not want to go upstairs in case they got sold a Bridal dress (laughs) by mistake. It would do Elizabeth Pack’s reputation a lot of good for them to have a more reasonable range of clothes on the Ground Floor, and then the people who would come in from Seaview who were well off would probably know that they could get Jaeger upstairs and of course, we had Jaeger down Union Street as well which we used to dress as well. And yes, Jaeger was still there at the time that I worked the last times that I worked Jaeger was still there as far as I remember. And so, I think it probably would have been the less expensive downstairs, the more expensive upstairs.
58 minutes 47 seconds
Simon: Ok.
Christine: And I think I’m right on that but it might be a good idea to check. There was a lady called Sue, I can’t remember her name but she’s in the picture with Mrs Barrow and another lady. She’s in the middle.
Simon: Ok.
Christine: If she speaks to you, or she’s come to speak to you, she would know exactly the layout.
Simon: Ok, that’s good. We sort of touched on when we were talking just now about the Cafés and the models walking through with clothes. Did you ever go to the Fashion Shows? They were sort of quite grand events weren’t they?
Christine: I went to the ones that my daughter was in. I’ve got pictures of her as a 3-year-old … she was 3 and 4 and they did a Fashion Show in the main building in Pack and Cullifords, and one of the Window Dressers was her help mate. She was very, very tall, Julie, so Julie and Laura went along and yes, so I was at that Fashion Show, but during the other Fashion Shows, we had to produce a catwalk for them and so we already had these things that had hardboard that you dropped it in to, to make the … like you would have a rigging for a Band to play on, so they were sort of kept downstairs in the Cellar if I remember rightly, so we would put out all these squares with legs and then drop the hardboard into it.
60 minutes 38 seconds
Simon: As a raised stage.
Christine: Yes, so it was raised platform and we had to make some stairs, sorry it was wood, not hardboard. And then I think there was a matting that went over it. So, we had to make all those things, and then, when the Fashion Show was on, we would have to be at the back helping the models into their clothes, so we rarely got the chance to look out and see how it was going, but occasionally I can remember nipping out quickly to the loo, going down the back stairs and sort of going up the main stairs and sort of watching as the models walked along.
Simon: ‘Cos there’s an Upper Floor then was it?
Christine: It was on the Second Floor if I remember rightly. When I say Second …
Simon: On the First Floor up.
Christine: The First Floor up, yes.
Simon: Ok. Right.
Christine: I think it was yes, ‘cos I think that’s where The Coffee Bean was. Yeah.
Simon: And how regular were they?
61 minutes 41 seconds
Christine: I think they did them once a year, as far as I remember, because all the other things were Autumn, Winter … but they used to show most of the season’s new clothes by using the models to walk amongst the people and so those models would be walking around in different clothes, two or three different garments. I think it was once a year as far as I remember. There was a regular Spring Fashion Show as far as I remember. In fact, I think on one of those Heritage things it says, ‘The Spring Fashion Show at Pack and Cullifords.’ (searching through material). Just trying to find it. That was a page I found about Woods and Wilkins, but I don’t know if there is any information, you might have seen that already. Oh, there’s Pack and Cullifords Spring and Summer Fashion Show.
Simon: Right. Oh, that’s at the Oasis Ballroom, Ryde, it says.
Christine: Yes, so they … what year it that?
Simon: ’66.
Christine: ’66, that probably would have been when I wasn’t there. Anyway, that shows you Miss Pack, not very easily.
Simon: Oh yeah, I’ve seen that one.
Christine: Oh, you’ve seen that one, ok. I don’t think I’ve got anything else …
Simon: Ok, not to worry.
Christine: … Miss Pack Sale is there but no there’s only one Pack and Cullifords, that’s a shame.
Simon: Ok. So, I guess one thing that would of interest. Some people may have attended the Fashion Show, not many people have been behind the scenes like you were. So, what was that like behind the scenes at the Fashion Show?
Christine: Complete chaos. I mean they’d sort of be going out without … well no, it wasn’t really chaos, it’s just you were afraid because the model had only just put her shoes on and then she’d have to climb up the steps and walk along, and that there was always that fear that they’d …
64 minutes 3 seconds
Simon: That they’d put their shoes on.
Christine: … that if it was a sling back heel, you know they might just topple over to one side. They always organised it very well, it was just that it became chaotic when people knew that they had several garments to get changed from and so it looked quite messy, but really it was I suppose you’d call it organised chaos. And of course, Mrs Barrow, as far as I remember, I think she used to do the speaking and Mrs Moody, so they may have taken turns at it, I can’t remember. I know that it was fun, and thankfully you know we got paid for doing that, so I think dissembling the stage was the hardest part. But no, the Fashion Shows were fun. I just think that it would be lovely to talk to people who went to the Fashion Shows from a customer point of view, and I haven’t looked long enough at the remarks to see whether there’s anybody in there.
Simon: Did they have to change outfits then? Is that where it became … you’ve got to get something off, get it back on and …
Christine: Yes, and of course most women tended to wear a petticoat so you wouldn’t have anybody with you know, half naked really, but hairstyles had to be kept in like bouffant hairstyles with grips in would say come apart and … there were rails of clothing for each model, so each model would sort of stand in amongst the rails to change, so it was very decent, it was just an unusual thing for us to see ‘cos normally they would … if a lady had come in to try a dress on, she’d be behind a curtain, and whether or not you got the right dress, that was another thing that was important. I mean I didn’t have that job. I just was there to clear up, put something back on a hanger again, you know. I’m sure a lot of people that arranged it were tearing their hair out by the time it had finished. They might not agree with me but …
66 minutes 24 seconds
Simon: How many of those did you do? Do you remember?
Christine: I think I did two, as far as I can remember. I actually think I might remember the one at the Oasis Ballroom, but I just can’t picture it. I just remember being down there and it being quite warm.
Simon: I guess the other time that Pack’s went out to the public was during Carnivals.
Christine: Yes.
Simon: What do you remember about … ‘cos the Carnival Floats are well remembered aren’t they?
Christine: Yes, I think I was in two or three. I think I remember … we didn’t have to build them. The Display Manager usually built them with maybe a hired Carpenter, possibly Ray Langdon. They would build them and we didn’t really get a chance to try the clothes on until the day, so you couldn’t really do a dress rehearsal. So, none of us that were chosen were real models, we didn’t have any clue as to how you stood and what you did, and I remember being totally disappointed when I was chosen to the Lion Tamer in a cage and all the girls were wearing furs and leathers, and I thought trust me, I get that silly hat that on safari people wear (laughs).
68 minutes 6 seconds
Simon: Oh right, the pith hat, helmets or whatever they’re called, right.
Christine: I had that with a whip in my hand, and I also remember being pleased because I was chosen to wear the raincoat, the Mary Quant raincoat, the plastic black and white one. That I bought eventually and it was all Mary Quant. There was a name for her brand, ‘Mary Quant just’ something. And so, everybody wore Mary Quant on that particular Carnival Float.
Simon: Yeah, what were you modelling around? You were saying a cage for the first one.
Christine: I think it was hay.
Simon: Hay, ok.
Christine: I’ve got one on Carnival Floats … oh, here we are. I think you’ve seen that one haven’t you? The Concorde.
Simon: Yes, that’s the Concorde one yeah.
Christine: I think Mr Priestly was … (searches documents) … that one was just ..
Simon: Oh, is that the Mary Quant one?
Christine: … hay with a big wheel. Is that the Mary Quant, no sorry, that’s not the Mary Quant one, that’s …
Simon: They look quite close to that era don’t they?
Christine: They do, I’ll get it in a minute. It’ll come out …(searches documents) … that’s the Lion Tamer one.
Simon: Oh yeah.
Christine: And … (searches documents) … oh come on I must … oh, here it is. I think we started off from Pan Estate in Newport. This was Newport Carnival. That was the Mary Quant one.
Simon: Ok. Yeah, great outfits.
Christine: I can’t even remember … was it the hay one?
Simon: There is hay on that one. There’s hay on that one as well.
Christine: They must have used the …
Simon: You know that’s the same …
Christine: I’ve just realised that different years, I’m sure.
Simon: No, I think that’s the same one because the one on the left is her …
70 minutes 4 seconds
Christine: Ah, yes it’s the same people isn’t it? Are we all in that one?
Simon: So, maybe that’s the before and that’s when you got the prize?
Christine: No, they’re different people in that one. ‘Pack’s Go Wild’ I think it was because we were in a different Carnival, like a Newport Carnival and a Ryde Carnival …
Simon: Right, so you toured around the Island in different Towns.
Christine: Yes. I have a feeling that I was, as I can show, I was in it once or twice because of that one. Yeah, so it would have been twice I would think.
Simon: And what was the reaction of the Towns when you went round?
Christine: I think a lot of boys used to shout things but the nice thing is that the majority of those clothes were available in Pack and Cullifords and … ‘cos it was furs from Pack’s but there was also the other one where I think they were from Miss Pack, so she changed the outfits by the looks of it. She still had the same design but she changed the outfits for Newport because I’m pretty certain that was Pan Estate, but here this was Ryde Carnival. I’m certain it was. A lot of people would shout out things like, ‘How much is it?’ you know whatever thing you were wearing (laughs).
Simon: Lots of fun.
Christine: I wonder who all those people are? It was, it was lots of fun. But then of course I’m a lot older and creaky now and it’s such a shame that the Carnival has become so small. I know that in the Department Store, I noticed that they were doing things for the Carnival, is that right?
Simon: Yeah, I mean that’s the people who are converting the building for the last 20+ years have been doing Carnivals round the world.
72 minutes 15 seconds
Christine: Yeah, fantastic.
Simon: I don’t know if you saw the Exhibition at Quay Arts.
Christine: No, I didn’t.
Simon: Oh, it was incredible. You could get up close to the outfits.
Christine: Is it still there?
Simon: Not any more.
Christine: Oh, what a shame.
Simon: I think they’ve got a video you can watch about it. It’s incredible to see.
Christine: I must look that up, because I think it’s such a shame that our Ryde Carnival which is the oldest one in the country, is just like 2 minutes of a few Bands and a couple of people walking down it. If only we could get it to be bigger because I believe that was the initial idea of the Carnival Group that started in Elizabeth Pack’s. I think the original one was to get the Samba Bands going and you know just get it together a bit more. And they made lots of different heads and things for people to wear, but it just all seems to have died off in the last few years.
Simon: I guess that one thing that those Carnivals have each year is a different theme each year and you were … the last time we were speaking you were talking about your ‘Walk on the Wild Side’ …
Christine: Oh yes, I often wonder if she took that from my window because that would have been the period of time when I did it. So, I would say that because I had to explain to her why I had this tree, and why I named it ‘Walk on the Wild Side’ so I think … and that was a popular song. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard it, have you?
Simon: Yeah, absolutely, yeah.
Christine: And so I’ve only just thought of that when you said about it because it definitely was the theme.
74 minutes 3 seconds
Simon: Do you remember other names that you put to … so, each display you gave a different name to did you?
Christine: No, not always. No, sometimes they would just be in my head as … I mean it might be to do with a Jubilee or something like that. Then I would have things attributed to it, of pictures of the Royal Family, but most of the time Deann would make something for me to … I just can’t remember what I called the different windows ‘cos in my head they are still there. For instance, Easter windows they had little like for instance, ‘Spring is Sprung’ or a name like that, but I didn’t have that many. Mostly my displays were part of my imagination. It just seemed very fitting when that song came into my head, ‘Take a Walk on the Wild Side’ because of the clothes.
Simon: Did you have any other particular window displays that stick in your mind of ones that you’ve done over the years at Pack’s related shops? I guess the difficult thing is that when you’re doing it week in, week out, you’re not sort of remembering stuff. It’s just on to the next week I guess isn’t it?
Christine: I know. I just did so many. I can’t remember them. I just remember that I often had to go down to Rolfe’s and sometimes I would borrow things from Rolfe’s to use in the displays. Rolfe sold so many different things because they had all the art stuff that you needed, but they also had a big area that they sold big pots from India, 1960s style pots, pampas grass, woven stools. I bought one of … when they closed I bought a woven stool, a raffia woven stool that was quite high, very 1960s. They sold an awful lot of things that were on trend and they would lend them to me for windows so I could have a window that was maybe Mrs Barrow had Indian design dresses and I could get pots that would look right with it you know? Just would have that look. And try and find some material that had an Indian feel to it, but again you had to be quite careful about what you put in as a background because if the clothes were highly patterned, it didn’t sit well. There always had to be plainish at the back, so it just might be that I would choose … because Indian people use a lot of orange backgrounds and brownie-coloured backgrounds, I might chose material that was orange silk to drape down or just to give them you know, a contrast with the clothes that she was selling. I just don’t remember.
77 minutes 43 seconds
Simon: Well you’ve remembered an awful lot throughout … I mean this is the second session. There’s a lot has come out so …
Christine: It has.
Simon: Is there anything that I should have asked you about do you think that I haven’t asked you about yet?
Christine: I think I already told you that the Christmas windows were very, very important and very big and we had to make all the things that went in it. Dress all the trees but also make the little sprites and things like that, so that was when Sue Arthur was Display Manager, so we did spend a good part of the Autumn making everything down in the cold Cellar, and I think I may have already told you that so … I can’t think of anything.
Simon: Ok.
Christine: But what I could do is if I do think of a theme that I used, ‘cos I know that I used props and sometimes I made them, which is why I made such a lot at Dabell’s because I had props, I was able to do that, and use a jigsaw. So, you could say that the majority of the windows that stick in my mind tend to be the one that I won at Hill’s or another one that I did at Hill’s with some models standing in a canoe greeting Livingstone, and that was to display materials. I can’t think of any now that stand out in my mind and I think might be a good idea is just to … if I think of anything ‘cos I shall have a good think tonight, and I’ll write it down and if you think it’s worth speaking to me about, then you could do that.
Simon: Tell me some notes, that would be good.
Christine: Yeah, notes would be fine, yes.
Simon: Ok. Brilliant. Well, thank you very much for your time.
Christine: That’s alright.
Simon: Much appreciated.
Christine: I’ve really enjoyed it.
Simon: It’s been great.
Christine: Made me feel that it’s staved off dementia because it’s made me remember things that I hadn’t remembered.
80 minutes 10 seconds
Simon: It is amazing how memories link isn’t it? It really is.
Christine: Absolutely. I just hope that you find a few more people that can give you a better picture of how it looked in there, because it was like going into a proper Department Store and then when I came to see Elizabeth Pack’s, I couldn’t believe how big it was. I went … when Jenny said to me and I came back to the Island, she said, “Oh, they’ve opened a new Pack’s across the road” I just thought it was just going to be a single shop. It didn’t occur to me that they’d turned it into a huge Department Store, so I’m so glad we’re getting it back.
Simon: Brilliant. Thanks’ again.
Christine: Ok, thank you.
Simon: Cheers.
Interview ends.
80 minutes 59 seconds
