Simon: My name is Simon Perry and I am here for the Packs’ People Oral History Project. It’s the 10th July 2024 and were in Newport, in the Newport area and here with …
Jane: Jane Caldow née Moody.
Simon: Thank you very much for letting us come to your house today and have a chat to you about the sort of extensive history of Pack and Cullifords and well, you’re related to the family so this is going to be an interesting conversation I think. What was your year of birth?
Jane: 1959.
Simon: And where were you born?
Jane: I was born in Wootton on Kite Hill.
Simon: And your mum and dad, what were their names and year of birth?
Jane: My parents, Gill Moody, née Guy was born 1933, my father was William Moody, Bill, born 1929.
Simon: And which school did you go to when you were growing up?
Jane: I went to a small school in Spring Vale Seaview called Osborne House School. Then I went to the Ryde Presentation Convent and I did my ‘A’ Levels at Ryde School in Ryde.
Simon: And how was school and growing up times? What was the general feeling from then?
Jane: It was very enjoyable. Our first school was right by the Beach so we used to get picked up from school and go straight to the Beach, which was lovely. The Convent, we used to walk, get dropped off and then we’d walk home and Ryde the same. Yeah, we were lucky.
Simon: You were living in Wooton still at that time?
Jane: No, we were in Ryde. We’d moved through to Ryde.
Simon: Ok. I was thinking that’s quite a long walk.
Jane: No, we didn’t live in Wooton until later on.
Simon: Ok. I guess the really key point here is your family connection to … well let’s call it what it was, in Isle of Wight scales it was an empire. An empire of shopping extravaganzas (laughs). Can you explain the connection … well perhaps … it was your mother or your grandmother that was the original person that was …
2 minutes 2 seconds
Jane: My grandmother was the original person. She came back to the Island in the late 1930s. She bought Culliford in Totland Bay …
Simon: And her name was?
Jane: My granny was Mrs W G Guy, Winnifred Guy née Wray. She grew up in Newport, she was an Islander, and she came back in the late 1930s to Totland and bought the business of Susan Culliford, and it was still known as Cullifords and they were there throughout the war, and then I don’t know which year they got the Yarmouth business, which was also Cullifords, but my mother was then responsible for running both of those two. I think the Yarmouth shop was her project and she loved that little shop, and you can still see it today, the newel post going up the first floor is a very historic little old business was carved by my late uncle, who was a Sculptor.
Simon: What was carved?
Jane: The newel post, the big bannister post. If you go to the top of the Yarmouth shop, you look in, you can still see this beautiful bannister post going up, and that was carved by my uncle Chris.
Simon: Right. So, what made her … well, one come back to the Island and two, buy the business?
Jane: I think it was for family reasons and she had been in business, they were in Salisbury prior to that, and granny came back to the Island to be close to her family because her mother and her two sisters were here and she had four children and so my mother used to travel in to Newport on the bus (laughs) from Totland …
Simon: Wow, that’s a hike.
Jane: I think that was a big journey all through the war when she was young.
Simon: Why move in to Retail?
Jane: Because granny had been in Retail I’m sure. She had been in Retail in Salisbury.
Simon: And doing women’s clothes there.
Jane: And she knew the background, yes. And my great grandfather was a Jeweller so Retail was in the family.
Simon: Ok. Sorry, carry on.
Jane: Yeah, 124 High Street Newport was Ray’s the Jeweller, what’s part of Boots now, and that was one of the really historical buildings in Newport and of course it’s all incorporated into Boots in the 1970s before lots of buildings were listed, so sadly of course today they would have preserved it all, but not then.
4 minutes 10 seconds
Simon: So, buying the place in Totland …
Jane: Yes.
Simon: … there was accommodation there as well?
Jane: Vectis House. It had the flat above, the shop on the ground floor and you had three of four windows, we’ve got the photograph, and you went in and there was a little tiny staircase up to the upper level, there was a garden at the back and a sort of shed in the garden, and there was kitchens and toilet areas on the ground floor and Offices and stuff. Then you went up to the first floor which was the flat.
Simon: Right, ok. So, the idea of living above the shop …
Jane: It was the case absolutely, opposite yes.
Simon: And what sort of women’s clothes were sold there?
Jane: Well, from what I know it was all ladies fashions. Whether they did children’s I’m not too sure, but the children’s was in Ryde later on, but it was women’s fashions and of course during the war it was all coupons, and I remember my mummy saying that the girls who were fiancées who were Nurses working at the … it was the Totland Bay Hotel which was the beautiful Hotel that’s now the block of flats, and they had lots of … whether that was a Convalescent Home I’m not too sure but they were stationed there because of course the Island had … you know you look at the Isle of Wight war history books, there was a lot of Forces on the Island, and the Nurses would all come into my grandmother for their clothes and stuff as would local people. She did a wedding dress for one girl and they saved up all the coupons and stuff and my mother used to say well they always wondered whether the fiancé survived the war or not, but I don’t know.
Simon: That’s interesting the idea … well I guess your grandma bought the business before the war was …
Jane: Before the war. I think it was like ’37, ’38 they came back to the Island.
Simon: So, that idea of retailing clothing in the time where you have to have coupons …
6 minutes 4 seconds
Jane: Yes, was difficult, but she was quite an astute business woman I think.
Simon: So, the coupons, for those who don’t know about it meant that you couldn’t just go into a shop and say, “I’ll have that please.”
Jane: No, no fast fashion in those days.
Simon: You had to present … what was it this length of cloth or a value of clothes or …?
Jane: I don’t know all the ins and outs of it but undoubtedly lots online about it (laughs).
Simon: No, I don’t know either.
Jane: No, but they all had coupons because you had coupons for food and everything else didn’t you? It was to make sure that things were shared out equally, but certain things you were still allowed to buy, to have I suppose, wool and things like that because you still had to have people clothed.
Simon: Yes, that makes sense. So, there’s Totland …
Jane: Yup, that’s through the war.
Simon: … and then she expanded to Yarmouth.
Jane: To Yarmouth, I would imagine that was post war. That was Cullifords again, so whether that had been Susan Cullifords business I’m not too sure. As I said, sadly my mother is no longer around now but she would still remember.
Simon: And she then extended the name somewhere else or perhaps it was already. And then what was the next stage after that?
Jane: Well the early 1950s, they came through to Ryde, and it was Henry Pack & Co and you go through the old Kelly’s Directory you can see Pack’s and that’s why the main Pack’s building where French Frank’s is now, you’ve still got the name Pack’s on the entrance there, on the sort of middle window, and so they bought early 1950s, they purchased the main Pack’s business …
Simon: That’s a big building.
Jane: It’s a very big building, absolutely and I’ve made a quick list of the different Departments, and there was also Seaview, which was also a Cullifords, and that’s why Pack and Cullifords came into being because you already had the Cullifords name and then of course you had the Pack’s name.
Simon: Right, so it’s … do you know if the other part of the business had other shops elsewhere?
Jane: There were other shops yes, because later they then had Shanklin. There was also a small business in Bembridge which I remember going to as a child, and as you go into Bembridge where the Lloyd’s Bank used to be it’s an actual row of shops opposite where Boots and Fox’s the Restaurant is. It was an actual row of shops opposite there. That was the Bembridge business, and I said the Shanklin was a big premises which I know we’ve got a photo of, and then in Ryde they then expanded into the Jaeger Boutique what was in Union Street. That was 24F Union Street and then Miss Pack, the Boutique up the High Street, which was all the young fashion, and that was where Watson Bull & Porter the Estate Agents is now.
8 minutes 37 seconds
Simon: I mean there are so many shops (laughs). Your grandma’s business partner that came together to then buy the building that we know as the French Frank’s building.
Jane: The main Pack’s business.
Simon: Who else was in with your …
Jane: Well, there was my mother, my grandmother and my mother’s brother and her sister.
Simon: I see.
Jane: So, it was a family business.
Simon: So, four family, ok. And had they … the other parts of the family had shops around beforehand as well?
Jane: No, it was always concentrated on that one, so my aunt would have been in business, went into the business in Totland with my grandmother when she was a teenager. When my mother was older, she went into the business. My uncle did different things but he was also a Director as well.
Simon: So, it was your grandmother that was the sort of originator of the idea of Retailing women’s clothes.
Jane: Yes, who came back to the Island and yes, had the Totland Bay business originally and then Yarmouth, yeah.
Simon: So, that move to that building in Ryde, huge risk actually, commitment …
Jane: Well, today looking … yes, yes.
Simon: … for sure.
Jane: I think it was already a Retailers because there used to be … you know when it was all done up when the business was finally sold and converted into flats where it is now and just the ground floor is the Retail and Charity shops and things, the first floor windows were these beautiful etched glass windows which had sort of ‘Ladies Outfitters’ and stuff so if you look at some old photos of the ‘80s of that you will see those beautiful windows. What happened to the windows I don’t know.
10 minutes 14 seconds
Simon: Right.
Jane: But when it was all converted in to the flats, I think plain glass was put in.
Simon: So, they bought the building as well as the business do you know?
Jane: As far as I know, yes.
Simon: I’m just thinking how far you’ve got to extend yourself to go from a shop in Totland and one in Yarmouth to then, I mean it’s a gargantuan building. I mean what bravery frankly?
Jane: Yes, absolutely. And as business was then .
Simon: And an understanding of the market and a belief in what would be changing.
Jane: Yes.
Simon: And the desires for people to shop.
Jane: Yes, which you think that’s the sort of ‘50s and ‘60s I suppose things were getting going again after the war weren’t they?
Simon: Right.
Jane: We had the boom, it was …
Simon: And which year did they buy the place in Ryde?
Jane: That was early 1950s.
Simon: Ok.
Jane: I did have a note somewhere with some dates that mummy said maybe ’52, ’53? So, after that my aunt and my grandmother moved through to Ryde, and my mother she married in ’56 when they first moved over in Seaview and then the flat in Totland that they had.
Simon: So, they’ve got the building we think it possibly it was a Retailer before you think?
Jane: It was it was Henry Pack & Co. That’s where the Pack’s name came from because that’s why you’ve got Pack’s in the flooring as you go into French Frank’s you can see the Pack’s name.
Simon: Yes, ok.
Jane: So it’s H Pack & Co and that was an Outfitters. That’s where the original, these windows with ‘Outfitters’ on were then.
Simon: Ok. So, they … it’s interesting this idea of she’d bought the Culliford name…
Jane: Yes, she had Cullifords.
Simon: … she inherited the Pack …
Jane: Then purchased Pack’s, yeah and then it became Pack and Cullifords.
Simon: Yeah, so none of them are her own names in there or …
Jane: No, it was never …
Simon: … but I guess it was, we’d call it brand recognition these days I guess wouldn’t we?
12 minutes 4 seconds
Jane: Yes, today.
Simon: It’s sort of a reassurance, it’s not just some new thing. Ok, and was there much work done to the building, the French Frank’s building?
Jane: What when it became … when they moved in? I don’t know. I imagine they inherited it as it was already a Retailers whether the whole building was Retail I don’t know, and I’ve got a note of the different Departments and what was on which floor, as I remember it, growing up and everything and being in Ryde.
Simon: Ok.
Jane: So, shall we …?
Simon: And then they converted so there’s …my mind is twisting round and round on what a massive venture it is to go from the photos I’ve seen of the ones in Totland. It’s sort of what you would have described as a shop, whereas you’ve got to also buy all the stock to fill up this massive …
Jane: The Yarmouth Boutique. Yes, the stock absolutely, yes in all the different Departments, yes, the expansion.
Simon: Yeah, goodness. Yeah, brave.
Jane: Yes, and Seaview of course.
Simon: Could we perhaps while we’re talking about sort of the bravery of it, talk about what was she like as a person to be that bold and ambitious?
Jane: Well, the little recording I played you. My granny, she was yes, she was a dynamic person, very family orientated. She was very determined. They lived in Wootton, she would get the bus into Ryde even into her 80s and stuff and go into the business. She’d gone through quite a lot, yeah but she was …
Simon: When you say gone through a lot, what …?
Jane: Well, she came back to the Island with children, lived through the war and ran a business so she had a lot to do.
Simon: I see, yeah. And I mean you saw the family side of her.
Jane: Yes of course, yes.
Simon: Did you notice a contrast in that between that and her work?
14 minutes 3 seconds
Jane: I didn’t really see her in business as such because I was at school and everything, we’d only see her … but we used to go over to her for the day at weekends and stuff and school holiday time we’d spend a lot of time together . She’d been a fantastic pianist, she was creative, a very good Artist and she was LRAM so she had … and I played the piano and she always used to coach me before the Musical Festival and you know to do that and bought me a piano, a very nice piano.
Simon: I mean running a business that big you’d imagine under enormous … I know they had a lot of Staff but still it’s an enormous amount of time.
Jane: Yes, but there was still a lot of family time as well.
Simon: Well, that’s good to have the division.
Jane: Yes.
Simon: Ok. So, is there any more that we should learn about your grandmother do you think? Her personality or …?
Jane: I’ve probably said enough I expect, I’ve got lots of photos I can show you, yeah but she was a very endearing sweet person, a very doting grandmother. I’ve lots of books written with inscriptions inside from her, so she was very, very fond of the family.
Simon: So, just to recap, because there’s your grandmother, her daughter your mother…
Jane: Yes, my mother.
Simon: … and her other daughter, your aunt.
Jane: Yes, and my uncle.
Simon: And your uncle.
Jane: He was on the Office side of things, rather than on the Retail.
Simon: What was his name?
Jane: David Guy.
Simon: David Guy, ok. There’s been mention of somebody called a Major Dabell. Was that later on or earlier or …?
Jane: I don’t … well, my mother’s first cousin was married to Dick Dabell.
Simon: Ok.
Jane: That’s the Dabell’s in Blackgang Chine, so that was cousin Joe.
Simon: Right, ok.
Jane: Whether he … I don’t know the ins and outs of the business at the early days so yes, there was a family. I don’t know of a Major Dabell I must admit.
16 minutes 16 seconds
Simon: Ok. So, I guess this is all going to be sort of second or third hand, you talking about your grandma’s experience in Totland. What I’m thinking is a lot of people have spoken about the sort of level of perfection of Pack and Cullifords.
Jane: Yes, one or two people have said that, yes.
Simon: The desire to be the best you can be, deliver the best service. Do you have any idea of that was something that she gained in Yarmouth or at Totland or …
Jane: Probably, or else she was, as I said in Retail in Salisbury when they lived there, so she would already have been in business. She was a business woman, and quite a character for those days when you think about it, yeah.
Simon: And knew what she wanted to project for the shop.
Jane: Yes. My aunt did weddings and stuff, it was always planned to the last degree. You know she would dye the hats and the shoes and everything else to match and she took endless, endless trouble. I don’t know if many people who had their weddings done by here have come in and said, but there were lots and lots and lots and everybody was always delighted I think with what they had, yeah.
Simon: That has definitely come through.
Jane: Oh right, that’s nice.
Simon: And that idea of comparing it with their friends who maybe went to the Mainland to get wedding stuff and just the perfection of the box turning up from Pack and Cullifords, ironed. All you need to do is stick it on a hanger.
Jane: Absolutely, it was ready to go, yes and she would be definitely yeah.
Simon: So, I’m just getting my head around idea of (laughs) moving to this enormous building.
18 minutes 4 seconds
Jane: For me it’s not that unusual because it was my childhood, I grew up with it. You know we used to go in watching the Ryde Carnival, that one slide I showed you, the floats and as far as I understand it I’m sure they used to provide the dresses for the Carnival Queen and the Maids of Honour and I’m sure there’s something online with the Carnival history that would say that. But the exciting … you know you used to go into the Union Street shop to watch the Carnival coming along and waiting for that procession to come up. In those days it came along Melville Street and along Cross Street and then it went up the High Street. That was the route and you would see the first bit and the Ryde Carnival Queen was always these beautiful flowers and it was the fresh flowers of the Borough of Ryde and just the excitement. Because in those days we didn’t have all these other things you have today. You went to the beach; we went to the Cinema. There wasn’t all the stuff that children have today but we were all very happy (laughs). Probably happier weren’t we in some ways I think.
Simon: Yeah, focussed.
Jane: And there wasn’t the outside pressure either was there? There was family time and friends time and everything, but yes, the excitement of that and in later years, in the sort of late ‘60s, early ‘70s, we used to do our own float. We would be a group of foot …we used to do the Children’s Carnival and everything which was great fun, absolutely great fun.
Simon: Which of the floats do you remember?
Jane: Oh the floats were fantastic and sadly we don’t have … I found one blurry slide of the song, ‘Up and Away’ the balloon one, and so that year they had a big basket and there was a big net with all the balloons in, and my mother said another year there was … when all the fake furs came in, and they had the girls as if they were the wild animals in a cage or something and they were all in the fake furs going … but we don’t have photos of that. There’s one blurry one of the hot air balloon.
Simon: I’ve seen a photo of that.
Jane: Have you seen a photo? I’d love to see it. And there’s the Concorde float. You’ve seen a photo of that because we did that on year because that’s down at the Historic Writers afternoon. People said, “We’ve got Health and Safety, there’s me up on the wing. Oh, we had great fun.” We loved it, we just loved it. And I can talk to you about Simmonds Builders a little bit because they of course always made the floats.
20 minutes 12 seconds
Jane: Yes, the Carnival, so for several years but if you’ve seen a photo of that I would love … because mum used to talk about that. I don’t remember it but they were great fun.
Simon: I mean they were a marketing tool I guess …
Jane: Of course!
Simon: … but a contribution to the Town.
Jane: To the Town, and the Carnival in those days was wonderful because all the businesses did it, you know and the end thing was always the steam engine from the classic Steam Railway and we were watching once and they used to come along, you would go up round the Town and come round, and this must have been the Illuminated when it was slightly … but it was coming round the corner from Cross Street into Union Street and this great big old steam … and it slipped and it went towards the crowd, and in those days the crowds on the pavement were 5 or 6 deep, because again it was a really big thing, and we watched it from our windows above and thank God it was all ok, but I still remember the shock as a child.
Simon: So, that was a sort of road squashing steam thing was it?
Jane: The classic… the ‘Havenstreet Queen’ it was called, because we have got some photos of the Industry’s Fair when they used to do the Fashion Shows and one of the steam engines is in that photo. I can show you afterwards. We’ve got these black and white photos.
Simon: And that’s because it’s a steep bit of the hill.
Jane: Yeah, you think they’re coming round from Cross Street into Union Street with the roller.
Simon: There’s not a lot of grip on a metal roller.
Jane: No, and you’re coming into quite a steep hill.
Simon: Yeah, goodness (laughs).
Jane: Yes, so I do remember that as a bit of a shock as a child seeing that thing and thinking gosh what’s going to happen? But yes, the Carnivals were great fun, and we did the Newport one year as our foot. You know we do …
22 minutes 12 seconds
Simon: What’s the foot bit thing?
Jane: Well, the Pedestrians. We took part as a group. We did several groups as youngsters. The last one we did was, must have been about ’74, we did the ‘Last of the Nobs’ because we were just opening in Cross Street, and all the Lotus shoe boxes had arrived so we painted those white and it was the year of the sugar shortage, so we were dressed in top hat and cane, we were the NOBS in the Sugar Knob boxes dressed as … we got a couple of 1st Prizes. Again, we did the foot you know as Pedestrian Groups.
Simon: I didn’t know about the sugar shortage. Didn’t remember about that.
Jane: Yes, ’74. I looked it up to check the year because I knew we did … I’ve got a nice formal photo of us in Newport Carnival among the family photos. Another year we were at the Pop Festival so that would have been in 1971, in ’72 we did the Olympics. We did a big monster I think.
Simon: Right. Is there a list of all of the floats that were done do you know?
Jane: The Pack and Culliford floats. I mean those were us as a family group, those ones. That wasn’t business, that was us. No sorry, that was not business related. The was all us as children doing it. But the business, um well yes there was the hot air balloon, there was the fake furs, there was the Concorde which must have been ’70 or ’71 I think. Whichever year that … there must have been others but I can talk to you afterwards about someone who might be able to help you a bit more.
Simon: Ok. So, if we go back … what’s the proper name for the French Frank’s shop apart from …?
Jane: It was known as Pack’s but it was the business was Pack and Cullifords. That was always known as Pack’s Union Street I suppose.
Simon: Ok.
Jane: And when they moved to Cross Street, it was Pack and Cullifords, the name on the outside was Pack and Culliford..
Simon: Yeah, so let’s call it Pack Union Street because otherwise I keep on calling it French Frank’s.
Jane: No, it’s not. You want to call it as Pack’s, yeah.
24 minutes
Simon: And that was how many floors?
Jane: Well, you had the Basement Floor, I’ve got my little notes I wrote down, which was Display and also where the Father Christmas Grotto used to be, and when they were converting it into flats, you could … the side door, the back door we used to use is still the door to the flats at the back as you go down Church Lane. There’s a little door on the right and that was the back door to the main building and you went in and there was a stone staircase going downstairs. And it was still, some of it was still painted in the sort of mock stone look where the Display people had done it for the Father Christmas Grotto. He was in a Castle that year and the queues were incredible. I have got a photo actually of Father Christmas arriving which I’ve got in the box there. And so, you went downstairs and Display was certainly downstairs there, and there was several rooms. Because one year, I was about 15, 16 I joined the Display Department for the summer. I did a summer job. And then you went through and they did still have the bars on the window and the Ground Floor was the Children’s Floor and I remember there was … and it was a very well stocked Children’s Department because they did school uniform for some of the schools. I don’t know if they did the school uniform for the Convent where I went.
Simon: I had heard that there were Convent girls sometimes went in for school uniforms.
Jane: Yes, so they would have done the school uniform I’m sure for the Convent and other sort of schools with school uniform. And that was the Children’s Department and you went in where the Cancer Shop is. If you look at their doors, you’ve still got the nice brass door handles on, and when you went in that door, you went up three steps onto the Ground Floor but they were on sort of … they’re on one level now, and if you went into their Basements of course that would still have been all the Basement of what was Pack’s. The Basement in the Save the Children Shop that’s been empty for now since the pandemic hasn’t it? You went down into the Basement there that again would have been the Basement for Pack’s. It was all a very large area and you went up onto the Ground Floor which was the Children’s Department and that was all as far as I recall Children’s Department on that Ground Floor. And there was a big staircase. You had the back …
26 minutes 7 seconds
Simon: before we go on to the floor above, can you describe … there’s a Children’s Department but can you describe the furniture or the layout or …?
Jane: They would have been big wooden units like you had in Display units. At the back of Cross Street there was all the old wooden cabinets. They would have been used for that and as I recall if you were on the Ground Floor, before you went up the main staircase which was in the middle of the building, if you looked from the door from the Cancer Shop, you go in on that wall, the main staircase went up that part of the building and I seem to recall they had various big toys on display, because occasionally if we were allowed to play with them after the Carnival, we were still there before everyone went and we would go home again, we were allowed to play with these toys sometimes, but they must have been just for display. They didn’t sell toys, but they were display ones.
Simon: And the cabinets were sort of glass topped, glass fronted, drawers inside.
Jane: I assume so, yes. And then over the years it was modernised I think. Sadly, in those days people didn’t take all the photos we take today, so you don’t have the …
Simon: And the main entrance was the centralised one with the glass display box in front of it.
Jane: Yep, the window where the entrance to French Frank’s is where it says Packs, that was the Main Entrance. Yes, the double doors and that little window in the middle, that was my grandmother’s hat window. She did her hats in there, and then of course the other big windows like you’ve got the slides that I took were the big display windows there. But that was granny’s hat window.
Simon: So, we understand the sort of the layout of the Floor, Children’s Department downstairs and you mentioned the staircase that would be on the right-hand side towards the water.
Jane: Yes, that side of the building, a big sort of double staircase that went up. It was once, it went up round to the right and then onto the First Floor.
28 minutes
Simon: Ok. And on that Floor, what was there?
Jane: As you went up, you went up into … the floor went … there’s still the fixed window that doesn’t open overlooking Union Street and that was the window of the Coat Department and it was … I mean I’ve got names of Staff I can go through another time, there was the big window that side but the Coat Department ran from the Union Street window right through on that Floor and as you went up into that Department on the right was the small switchboard. We always had somebody on the switchboard as all the calls came in, so she was there and I think there was one or two stairs up into the next Floor and that was the main Fashion Floor. So, you went in and they had dresses, suits, from what I recall, evening wear, and then off to the right was a slightly separate area which was the Bridal and I think there was hats, but you also had Bridal on that Floor as well. So, all the main Fashions and Brides and everything.
Simon: And when you said suits, that’s men suits is it?
Jane: No, ladies.
Simon: Women’s suits ok.
Jane: Yeah, skirts, suits and stuff, trouser suits.
Simon: Ok. So that’s a pretty busy Floor, that one was?
Jane: Yes a lot, and a big Coat Department. You had all the macs and of course in those days there were furs as well. Ladies wore their furs. You look at all the old Fashion Show photos …
Simon: And was there a Floor above that?
Jane: Yeah, there was a Floor above that. You went up another staircase. The back staircase which would have been the Fire Exit went from the Church Lane all the way up the back of the building. That was a spiral staircase that went all the way up and then you had the wider staircase, the main one went up to the Second Floor and as you went into that Floor again, it was a similar layout. You had the long floor, the sort of wide area and that was as I recall that was all the Nightwear, Lingerie and things like that, and then you went into Sportswear and Swimwear and that sort of stuff. So, that was all on that Floor and then off to the right, there was a door, there was the Director’s Office and there was a little Kitchen area in there and that was on that Floor, and then the Floor above, the small windows you can see today as you look at the building, that was all the Workrooms, because of course they had the best light. So, I imagine the structure was inherited from Henry Pack because they would have made things, so yeah. And then you had the Staff Rooms at the top there as well which was the Staff Rest Rooms and stuff.
30 minutes 17 seconds
Simon: And that’s where all the alterations took place.
Jane: They were done and they made things as well.
Simon: Ok.
Jane: Because in the ‘60s, they had a Centenary Fashion Show, and they made two beautiful dresses my mother wore. An Edwardian style one, I’ve got a photo of her on my phone, we’ve got a slide, and my aunt wore the Victorian dress which is actually still for sale at Dig For Vintage. When everything was being cleared out in February, I wondered where these dresses were and a few days later, I was in Ryde and I saw it. I went in and asked Sarah. She said, “That’s the dress, do you want it back?” I said, “No, no” but she hasn’t sold it yet because it was very slim. My aunt was very slim and the girls today …
Simon: Right.
Jane: Nobody has yet been able to fit into it I don’t think. I did wonder maybe I should buy it back for the archive, but that was a Victorian crinoline style.
Simon: So, what was it a 100 years of what?
Jane: Of Packs being in Retail on the premises. That must have been 1860. I think it was 1960s. I’m not sure of the date … we have got the original slides, so I could check the date on that. So, they did have these … my mother and my aunt modelled in the Show for the Centenary dresses.
Simon: How many people worked in the Alterations Department then?
Jane: I don’t remember really going up there. There was probably 3 or 4 tables with all the sewing machines and stuff and they would have made things as well I suppose sometimes. Like these dresses were made.
Simon: Yeah, it’s incredible to think that there’s enough work for 3 or 4 people to be employed full-time.
Jane: Yeah, we used to go up there sometimes and it was all a hive … and then of course you had excellent natural light on that top Floor because you were at the top of the building. No other buildings so you had very good light, so I suppose that’s why it was up there. Originally in the days of Henry Pack they would have all been made on the premises I suppose the dresses and things.
32 minutes 6 seconds
Simon: What was it that Henry Pack sold then? It was women’s clothes was it?
Jane: It was women’s clothes yes. The old Kelly’s Directories of Ryde would show the premises and what was there.
Simon: Do you know why he stopped being involved?
Jane: When he died, I honestly don’t know all the ins and outs. It’s bound to be online somewhere today isn’t it?
Simon: Yeah.
Jane: Because Ian the chap who’s been doing all the history, he probably knows.
Simon: I mean the thing of what people have said is the attention to detail, and I guess that’s part of why you need to have 3 or 4 people doing alterations.
Jane: Yeah, to make sure things fit.
Simon: And even people talking about going and buying their school uniforms, it wasn’t just, ’oh there’s your school uniform, off you go’ …
Jane: Yes, no you made sure it was the right thing, yes.
Simon: … and then fitted to you.
Jane: Yes, there’s a lovely lady called Hilary Spurgeon who took the service when my aunt died, and she said she remembered going there for her school uniforms and stuff. Sadly, she died in 2022, but …
Simon: Yeah, I think it’s quite a thing, people really remembered that experience.
Jane: Yes, and she would have been a super person for you to talk to actually because she said when she did my aunt’s service, she said, “Oh I remember going in” and it was so nice because she spoke personally, having known everybody.
Simon: From people we’ve spoken to, kids going in there and having their school uniform, very excited.
Jane: Yes, oh yes it was a big thing, yes.
Simon: It felt part of something special, you know.
Jane: Yes, something special. Yes, I suppose, yes. But yes, that’s the alterations. Yes, I mean I’ve got a couple of dresses from upstairs I can show you which were my 21st dress and in those days … later on there was a lady called Margaret, her mother was Mrs Castle, and she did all the late alterations for my aunt and always took things in for me. She was fantastic, a wonderful Seamstress.
34 minutes 11 seconds
Simon: So let’s just go back through the history. So, the building … what were we going to call it? Something Union Street.
Jane: Pack’s Union Street.
Simon: Is there more … how many years did that run just as itself, that Department Store?
Jane: From when they moved through and it became Pack’s, early 1950s through to ’74 when they bought the Woods and Wilkins building in Cross Street and expanded into Cross Street.
Simon: Ok. Let’s talk about that one on Cross Street then, and then we can talk about the other ones, the sort of outliers elsewhere. So, Woods and Wilkins was effectively a Hardware Store.
Jane: Absolutely, yes.
Simon: Maybe a supplier of wood as well and …
Jane: Oh they were, yes, because Ian has done all the research, he knows a lot about Woods and Wilkins doesn’t he? I just sort of remember when they went in it was all done up in that summer of ’74 and they opened that autumn, as I recall with The Coffee Bean and the Coffee Shop and everything which was very popular.
Simon: Why did they … I mean it’s pretty much next … I mean it’s diagonally opposite it.
Jane: I suppose they felt they wanted to expand. Yes, because the Children’s … I can’t remember now what went in because the Children’s Department certainly came over to Cross Street. I made a quick note of what was on Cross Street and they expanded into Shoes and it was Linens on the First Floor because we had the Coffee Shop which we’d never had, and of course that was really, really popular. In the days before there was all the Coffee Shops all … you think of Ryde today, it’s Charity Shops and Coffee Shops, but in the ‘70s and ‘80s it wasn’t of course. There was a lovely Café down Union Street called Bettys that had I think by then closed, and there weren’t all the extra Cafés that we have today, so it was very, very popular in its day.
Simon: Did they redo the frontage?
35 minutes 59 seconds
Jane: Yes, the frontage was changed.
Simon: That’s on the Ground Floor.
Jane: On the Ground Floor, yes.
Simon: So that was the sort of …
Jane: The gold finished windows, the brass windows isn’t it and the name Pack and Culliford and then the photos we’ve got show the left-hand side which was the little Plant Shop and everything.
Simon: Yeah, what was that called? Green …
Jane: Green Fingers, yes.
Simon: It’s just this constant expansion, it’s just incredible.
Jane: And the staircase went up and of course they are keeping the staircase I think because it’s got the P & C initials in which is really nice, because that was specially commissioned of course, that staircase going up to the First Floor at Cross Street.
Simon: So, that was put in at the time they moved in.
Jane: Yes, it was all modernised and went through. Do you want me to talk about some of the Departments in Cross Street?
Simon: Yeah, lovely.
Jane: Well, my mother ran that building, so sadly she would have been the person to talk to but …
Simon: But it was still part of the main business, but …
Jane: It was still part of the business, absolutely, but then my aunt stayed in Union Street and mummy ran Cross Street and my mother also ran the Jaeger Boutique, she always did that one, plus Shanklin and the West Wight businesses with my father. So, you’ve got the Ground Floor at Cross Street, you went in those doors there and that was then the Children’s Department, and then the back long narrow bit was the Menswear and Boys, which James … have you spoken to James Pellow because he ran the Menswear?
Simon: Yeah, we did, he was the first interview.
Jane: You interviewed him because he would have the memories of working there and so yeah. So, that was the Ground Floor at Cross Street, and then you had the Green Fingers. And then you went up that main stair …
Simon: Green Fingers being a separate shop to the …
Jane: It was separate and it had its own little door but that was originally part of the building. I think in later years it was … I think that was sold off, I don’t know all the ins and outs of the building as such. And you went up the Ground Floor, so you went up into the First Floor …
Simon: This is up the grand staircase.
Jane: The big staircase going up and you went left into the bit that later got sealed off above Bright & Minns the Dry Cleaners, and that was called the Marwood Room and that was larger sized fashions, because in the days of the Fashion Shows, there was a lovely lady who was called Mrs Marwood, who came in the ‘60s and ‘70s who modelled for us for donkeys years, and it was named after her.
38 minutes 14 seconds
Simon: Oh, that’s lovely.
Jane: And it was the Marwood Room, and so that was the sort of more plus sized fashions on that side. And then you went through into Children’s Shoes which were all the Norvic Shoes, they were a really well-known shoe, because the girl who ran that with mummy, she went off and did all the training to fit the children’s shoes properly and everything else, Avril, and she ran the Children’s and then there was the main Shoe Department which was Lotus, Trickers, really good names, and then you went through from the Shoe Department, you went through, they had a small Linen Department, so towels, sheets, used to have the Baker’s fabrics and things and into The Coffee Bean.
Simon: Oh, there’s so much there.
Jane: Yeah.
Simon: What are Baker’s Fabrics? What was that?
Jane: G P and J Baker, they’re some really nice furnishing fabrics like sort of curtains and yeah …
Simon: So, large scale if you were redoing your sofa or …
Jane: Yes, you would go and you would order in, go in and order … I’m not sure how long the Linen Department lasted for … they used to do very nice towels. I think we’ve still got one or two sheets tucked away at mummy’s that probably came from there. If people want anything like … I was just thinking they could have an exhibition of products. I’m sure we’ve got some of them tucked away.
Simon: Yeah, Terese and Tracy would probably want to know about that.
Jane: Yes, well I’ve got some of her long dresses as well, which is fantastic , which I’m keeping of course, but yes, they were … one of the brands of towels was I think we’ve still got one or two old ones, are Fieldcrest which is a very good American make. They were lovely.
Simon: The shoes, I mean the poshest shoes I ever had were Clarks, but the ones you are talking about are sort of elevated version of that are they?
Jane: Well yes, Norvic were a very good children’s brand because you still had Russel and Bromley in those days didn’t you down in Union Street so I think they probably did Clarks and Start-Rite, their own shoes, so we did the Norvic children’s shoes.
40 minutes 2 seconds
Simon: That was sort of equivalent of Clarks or better?
Jane: Similar, equivalent I should think. There must be a Wikipedia entry for them. So, you’ve got the Children’s Shoes and then the main Ladies Shoes. I don’t think they ever did men’s shoes. I don’t think, I’m not totally sure on that but I used to work in the holidays and I used to some Saturday work and I was in the Shoe Department and I really enjoyed actually yes, in the Sale time and all the racks of shoes. Yes, still got the old shoes.
Simon: Can you talk a little bit about what it was like working there?
Jane: I really enjoyed it. I mean I suppose Retail was in my blood. I worked in The Coffee Bean; I did Display one summer. I worked in The Coffee Bean. Not all at the same time of course (laughs) but one summer holidays I helped in the Display Department. I was about 17 I think, which I really enjoyed, and I used to help Saturdays in the holidays in The Coffee Bean and then I also in another year was in the Shoe Department, because you earned some money, which was great.
Simon: And did you receive the training on how to welcome people and …
Jane: Yes, I suppose it was probably then I was always working with the Staff but I … yes I sold quite a few pairs of shoes as I recall (laughs).
Simon: Because that’s one thing that people have spoken about is the attentiveness of the Staff.
Jane: Yes.
Simon: Not getting over involved, but they’re there when you need them and super tuned up on what the products were.
Jane: Yes, absolutely. And shoes, you’ve got to make sure that you fit before someone buys a pair of shoes, definitely. But yes, I enjoyed it, and The Coffee Bean was always terribly busy. I would help out on a Saturday on occasions. There were a couple of lovely ladies that I was there in The Coffee Bean with, and it was busy, busy, busy, yeah. And of course, in those days people still smoked so you would have the odd … there would be regular ladies who would come in and their table was their regular one. They’d all come in for their coffees and cakes.
Simon: It did seem that people made it as a regular Saturday meet up.
Jane: Yes, absolutely, absolutely. I suppose because it was more like … you think of the big Department Stores on the Mainland, I suppose it was more like that. When you had the Coffee Shop people would come in and of course they I suppose would probably shop on the way out or on the way in.
42 minutes 13 seconds
Simon: And also sort of miniature Fashion Shows within The Coffee Bean we’d heard.
Jane: My aunt did that, yes. There was a lovely lady called Christine who used to model for her and I think she would come in on a Saturday and wander through. Not in the days when mummy was running it because in those days it was a separate. It was shoes and you had the children’s, but yes, when my aunt … when it was Elizabeth Pack, they would do that, yes.
Simon: So, when you were there did they have a formal training process to take you to the level that was required there or …?
Jane: I don’t recall that particularly no, because I just did it as a weekend or a holiday job, but my mother would be there with the other members of Staff so you’d always check that everything was ok.
Simon: And how would you describe the service then that was given to customers?
Jane: Good, yes compared with probably today, although today you’ve got the individual Boutiques haven’t you up in London, places that would still do that service but yes …
Simon: And it was …
Jane: … definitely, yes, you had personal attention to detail, definitely.
Simon: Other things that people have said is the people who work there knew the customers …
Jane: Yes, you would have regular customers definitely.
Simon: … and they would know what would work for them fashion wise.
Jane: Yes, with the fashions yes. I mean I can’t … I never did the fashion side of things but no, I’m sure that was the case. And so down at the Jaeger Boutique, they would come and the regulars would … there was a lovely lady called Peggy Golding who worked there for years and my mother ran the Jaeger shop and they would go up to London on buying trips and things and I used to go with them on occasionally for the day, and she was super. We’ve got pictures of her modelling at a Morgan’s Fashion Show at the Island Sailing Club actually, Peggy. So, the Jaeger Boutique again, people would come in and of course you had the mannequin models in the windows which were made by the firm Adel Rootstein, which is a really famous mannequin company, and they were based on the real models of the day like Twiggy and stuff, so you got … I think some of those are over at the Velvet Pig now, aren’t they, the mannequins?
44 minutes 28 seconds
Simon: Oh they’re actually the ones there?
Jane: I don’t know which ones they’ve got but I know they had a couple for Tim when he was sorting things out.
Simon: Ok, oh that’s great.
Jane: But yes the Jaeger Boutique was very, very nice.
Simon: Where was the Jaeger … you said something ‘F’, 30F?
Jane: It was 24F. You know where Ladbrokes is, that was Russell and Bromley’s and it where the Spa, Kya, it was the Kya Spa place and you went in and you had all the fashions there, very nice windows and then down in the Basement was where the safe was and then you went out through the back and there was a little garden at the back as well.
Simon: Why was that a separate area?
Jane: I suppose they had that … I don’t know if they owned that building. Upstairs was Peter Anthony the Hairdresser and my granny used to go to him for hair, and whether they had the whole building I don’t know. I don’t know the background to all that.
Simon: But why keep that … Jaeger insisted that as separate or …?
Jane: Possibly, it was better as a stand-alone and it was purely the Jaeger and oh gosh, my mother sold a lot of Jaeger. I used to be treated to an outfit a year I think (laughs). I was very lucky, and Jaeger in those days was one of the really, really big names.
Simon: Yeah, it’s just this constant expansion. It’s just extraordinary, taking on more and more and more. It’s really admirable.
Jane: But I think by then Bembridge had already gone, because that was only a very, very small shop and I suppose it wasn’t really viable when you had Seaview and you had Ryde and in those days the roads weren’t as busy as they are today (laughs). So, I’m sure you got around a bit quicker.
46 minutes 14 seconds
Simon: Yeah. Do you know when the Jaeger shop opened?
Jane: I don’t know the dates on that. I could have asked mummy but …
Simon: And then it ran for a while and then …
Jane: Oh yes certainly it would only have closed in ’88 when the whole business … I’m sure it was kept around until then, definitely when my aunt carried on on her own in Cross Street.
Simon: So, let’s skip back to the Cross Street. The Ground Floor frontage had changed, big display windows, then the rest of it converted into the way you just described . The very Top Floor was left.
Jane: Was left because you can see what it was like now. When my aunt was there, there was extra storage was built in because she built in extra Stock Rooms and stuff which are still there . What they’ve kept of that I don’t know whether it will be much more modern but yes, the Top Floor was just left.
Simon: And loads of hooks in the ceilings.
Jane: Yeah, they would be from the Woods & Wilkins days.
Simon: Oh were they.
Jane: Oh God yeah, I know nothing about any of those, no. So, what those would have been for I have no idea.
Simon: I figured they were just for hanging the chairs for the Fashion Shows.
Jane: Well, they were … but they would have been there prior to us being there. Those were original Victorian (laughs) I think those hooks definitely. Ian would have an idea I imagine on what those were.
Simon: And let’s go down a Floor to the back section, The Coffee Bean.
Jane: The Coffee Bean yes …
Simon: What was your experience working there like?
Jane: It was great. There was a couple of lovely ladies, Elizabeth and Mary who I worked very closely with there. I’m not going to give you full names but one of them certainly still very much around. Whether she’s been in touch I don’t know, but we can discuss names afterwards, and I always used to do Saturdays or probably four or five other Saturdays, I don’t know but it was always busy, busy, busy. Especially if there was a meal or something (laughs) it was very enjoyable. And again, you knew the regulars.
48 minutes 14 seconds
Simon: Scones have been mentioned.
Jane: The scones, well that was in later days when Dot, her daughter she was there and her daughter who was … I don’t know if she’s been in touch but she ran The Coffee Bean for a number of years, a lady called Dot Cook did it for my aunt. She’s sadly not around but her daughter is certainly very much around. Yeah, the scones were fabulous. I mean in the days when mummy was there, in the early days, it was again sandwich and cakes and somebody used to make beautiful cakes for them, chocolate and coffee gateaux and the coffee machine, the Kenco Coffee Machine. Putting it in and the coffee filtering through and we used to have three of those pots on the go.
Simon: And it was sort … I mean Cafés can be of different levels can’t they?
Jane: It was coffees, teas, we used to do milkshakes, soft drinks and sandwiches for lunch time, Welsh rarebit, you know, cheese on toast, poached eggs on toast, light snacks, sandwiches and cakes. It wasn’t exotic cream cakes but it was sponge cakes and biscuits, and yeah, nice cakes. As I said, someone used to make the cakes for them and everything. This was the 1970s when things were very different (laughs).
Simon: Yeah, the English perception of what food could be was quite different to now wasn’t it?
Jane: Yes, I certainly remember doing lots of cheese on toast at lunchtimes, poached eggs on toast, sort of light snacks and things, making sandwiches for people.
Simon: Is that something you volunteered for, the summer job?
Jane: Yeah, I enjoyed it. I said I wouldn’t have done it if I didn’t want to. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I probably should have been at home revising for homework but it was much more fun to be doing that.
Simon: Ok. Can we talk a little bit about … we’ve spoken a little bit about Totland and Yarmouth. You mentioned some other …
Jane: Yes, well there was Shanklin was the other big shop.
Simon: That was a big … I’ve seen a photo, that’s big.
50 minutes 13 seconds
Jane: It was a big premises, yes big premises.
Simon: Was that all on one Floor?
Jane: It was all on one Floor, yes. It had a small garden at the back which if my parents were going over, my mother was going over for the day, we would go with her. So, she ran Shanklin along with my father and yes, they did Jaeger there because that photo shows Jaeger in the window and again it’s ladies fashions, some underwear. As you went in the big doors, I think the Lingerie and Underwear was off to the right and then Knitwear was round this part and then Fashions and then you had a back bit, you had the Office and a small kitchen area, loo and everything, and then the back door on to a little garden. And if you look at the premises these days where there’s a bit where’s there’s car parking, that was the original little garden. We went over in the holidays, I used to just sit out there and read a book and stuff. We were quite self-sufficient. Go off on the beach.
Simon: To sort of save people from having to go to Ryde was it?
Jane: I suppose so. Yes it was quite a big premises and it’s all flats above.
Simon: I mean that’s sort of six windows, it’s a big shop …
Jane: Six big windows.
Simon: .. on the corner. So, that was the same stock but just out in Shanklin.
Jane: Yes, it would have been yes. I don’t remember all those but I do remember there being shelves for all the knitwear and all the lingerie and there was the Fitting Rooms of course, yes.
Simon: Well, that sort of touches on who and how and where do you get the stock from? How do you choose what to get?
Jane: Used to go up to London on buying trips and things. Occasionally as a youngster I would go with my mother for the day. I remember, I think it was one of the … it was either Charnos or Jacqmar the scarf people. They had a lift and I would have been maybe 10 or 11. It was a big treat to go to London for the day because you didn’t have the exotic holidays abroad that everybody has today did you? And going up to London and going round and just seeing her buying different things and one of these Companies had this beautiful lift, and it was all beautiful inside and I remember thinking it was just like Cinderella’s carriage, so I was quite young, maybe 9 or 10 and this beautiful lift. And I think it was either Jacqmar the scarf company or it was Charnos who did all the lingerie. It was one the companies, but all the businesses were all round W1, as it had always been the fashion area, so all the Sale Rooms …
52 minutes 33 seconds
Simon: Great Titchfield Street around there I guess.
Jane: Yeah round … that was all, it was that area that they used to go to for the … my aunt would go up buying.
Simon: So, those were two trade only shops, not …
Jane: Yes, it would have been. Yes, you went up and did your buying. I mean my granny would have gone up on buying trips and stuff in the ‘50s I’m sure.
Simon: I mean this is …
Jane: And then you used to have the Travellers who came to you …
Simon: Right.
Jane: … with all their stock, and in later years they would still come to my aunt, the Travellers, yes, came in and you would look at all the ranges in the business and say, “Well I’ll have two of this in this colour and that size” and everything else so yes, you had the Commercial Travellers who went round. They’d always been in this country, selling not just clothes but everything else, but yes they would certainly come down to the Island and they would buy …
Simon: That idea of …
Jane: I think the Lotus chap used to come down to the Island to mummy. Occasionally she went up to London to buy the Lotus shoes and I’m sure they would come down to her as well.
Simon: The skills to run the business, to expand to all these different areas would be nothing without the right stock.
Jane: Yes, absolutely, and to know your customer, that was the thing.
Simon: And from what we’ve heard from other people, not just sort of saying “Oh, we’ll have 20 of those” it was small numbers so people … one per size effectively.
Jane: So, you wouldn’t have people bumping into each other at the do’s in the same … yes, in the same dress and things, yeah probably, yeah, definitely.
Simon: And I had wondered previously whether the people who were helping out in the shop sort of knew the social circles that the customers were in, to then avoid that situation coming up of the same outfits.
Jane: I don’t know if you knew someone well you would know they were going to something, but I don’t know.
54 minutes 17 seconds
Simon: So, where did the skill of picking the right clothes come from then?
Jane: I think it’s part of what you learn with experience isn’t it? Definitely, and you would look at something and think if you knew your regular customers like my aunt would and my mother would, like the Jaeger range mummy would buy for people down here more, you’d buy much more navy for the summer because navy is a good colour for the Island. People sail and it’s a navy and cream … and you would buy, yes, you would buy your summer season because you’re in a more beachy holiday place aren’t you? And in the winter you’d have all the do’s going on and things.
Simon: Yeah, there’s so many bits that have to come together to make it work as successful as it did.
Jane: Yes, for those years it was going. I mean my aunt carried on and she had a very, very good name as well when she was running her own business. Carrying on independently.
Simon: We’ve spoken about Shanklin, did you say Bembridge as well?
Jane: There was a little shop in Bembridge. I remember going to occasionally as a child but not so much and I don’t know which year that closed. I don’t think they had for so long. That would again be more ‘yachty’ stuff like in Seaview, they would have had all the sailing jackets and the crops and the summery trousers and dresses and stuff for people going to Seaview all on holiday. Because Seaview has always been such a sailing place.
Simon: I mean that’s … I guess it shows how many customers there must have been around there because Bembridge and Seaview are pretty much next door to each other.
Jane: Very close, that’s probably why Bembridge maybe was not kept open, I don’t know. It was an overlap with Seaview. I don’t know.
56 minutes 3 seconds
Simon: Yeah, did we look at the Seaview one? No, that’s Yarmouth isn’t it? So, where was the Seaview one then?
Jane: Well that was Cullifords. That was on the corner. As you go down the High Street, you know what was Watson’s the food shop. It was on the corner opposite.
Simon: Ok.
Jane: And my uncle was always responsible for that because you spoke to Jackie didn’t you? Jackie Herod at Seaview.
Simon: I don’t…
Jane: She came in on that Saturday.
Simon: Oh yes.
Jane: She would be the person to talk to about Seaview.
Simon: Ok. Have we covered all of the shops now because …?
Jane: I think we’ve done the West Wight; we’ve done Shanklin, we’ve done Ryde. Miss Pack I can’t really comment on so much. It was a lady called Mrs Connett who ran that, but that was where Watson Bull & Porter is, but there is … I don’t know if Tim’s got a photo or we’ve got a photo. I’m sure there is one around or else it might already be from the photos they’ve already got on … that were left in the business that Sharon’s found hasn’t she and there was various old photos that they’ve got, but Miss Pack …
Simon: That was quite a thing wasn’t it?
Jane: That was the teen Boutique, yes. I had one or two dresses from there I think, yeah.
Simon: Did you, right. It sort of struck me as maybe a sort of Mary Quant style.
Jane: Yes, that was the time, that’s why they felt they had to for Miss Pack I suppose.
Simon: Never an opportunity not taken it seems.
Jane: I suppose you could say that yes. I mean … yes, it was what I knew, it wasn’t anything different to me because I’d grown up with the business and yeah.
Simon: Ok. We spoke to Christine and you said that you’d worked … Christine used to do the windows for quite a few years.
Jane: She was Display wasn’t she?
Simon: And you also had that role.
57 minutes 53 seconds
Jane: One summer, it was a summer holiday job. There was a lady called Sue Arthur who did all the windows there. She’s now on the Mainland. We used to occasionally bump into her because she sailed. She ran the Department for a number of years. There’s also a chap called Cyril who was a Display Manager before that. Maybe Mr Creasy because if you look at some old … actually I’ve got a tea towel Pack and Culliford tea towel upstairs I’ll bring down and show you. There was Mr Creasy, I’m sure he was a Display Manager and then Cyril, and then Sue Arthur, and then one summer I said I’d like to do … because I was quite arty, and my mother had a word and Sue said, “Yes, fine” so I used to … my father would drop me in each morning and I did it and went out with them to some of the … did the windows, helped paint all the billboards and stuff, because remember the Cowes Week windows, they would always do these fantastic backdrops, paint the backdrops with sails and that sort of stuff and they she did some absolutely beautiful windows.
Simon: Right, we had heard of someone who was very talented at painting.
Jane: Yeah, that’s Sue Arthur. You know the mural that’s on the back of The Coffee Bean, that’d what she did, she did that which I think they are hopefully keeping aren’t they?
Simon: I don’t know I’m afraid.
Jane: You know, the brown … oh of course you don’t know, it’s Sharon. You’ve been to the premises haven’t you?
Simon: Yeah.
Jane: You know at the back of The Coffee Bean there’s this brown and white view of … shall I close the window?
Simon: Ok.
Jane: Yeah, so she painted that, the old view of Ryde, so that was Sue Arthur that did that. She lives in Chichester, that way I think, but she would be a super person if you could get in touch with her, I don’t know.
Simon: How did you get on with the … because it’s quite a skill laying a window out.
Jane: Yeah, well I enjoyed it. I used to help my mother occasionally with the West Wight windows. I used to go when she was doing the Sale windows. I was allowed to write the signs, and so we’d sort of … the first day of the Sales was always a really, really big thing as well, you know people would queue up outside you know that was the thing, when a Sale was a Sale. And certainly at Totland they’d be waiting outside for them to open on the first day of Sale and I’d go over the day before if it was holiday time of something on a Saturday and help do the windows, or help them write the notices out. Little things, you wrote the price down and you crossed it through and then put the sale price in red on the ticket, and it was all pinned on. But Sue did wonderful windows. But yes, I enjoyed it, I mean I just helped arrange things and did a bit of painting for them. I can’t remember particularly, it was either when I was 16 or 17 I think, but it was great fun and then went off, they were going to Shanklin to do the windows there I’d go over and help with those and …
60 minutes 41 seconds
Simon: Yeah it’s like painting the Forth Bridge it sounded like, redoing the windows.
Jane: Oh yes they were done every week, they would all be changed, yes.
Simon: I mean when you think about Retail now …
Jane: Yes, it’s just the same … it’s just standard isn’t it? Because Sue later she went to Army & Navy I think in Chichester, and of course they then went … it was just corporate. There was no chance of any individuality in display at all, that’s all gone which is sad.
Simon: And relying on the Retailers posters …
Jane: Yes, rather than actual merchandise. But yes, the lady who used to do my aunt’s windows, she’s probably still about. Tim would have her contact details.
Simon: Ok.
Jane: I’m talking about more recent years, she would come in, do them every week.
Simon: You’ve touched on some of the Carnival bits although actually we’ve probably covered Carnival haven’t we?
Jane: Yes, we talked about …
Simon: I don’t think there’s anything more to come with that.
Jane: No, because you’ve got those other photos, and I’ve got one slide which shows the hot air balloon one, which is somewhere but we have got that. I can get that out another time.
Simon: The Santa’s Grotto is something that seems to keep coming up.
Jane: Yes, there is a black and white photo here (searches for photo) I don’t know what year that is.
Simon: And there’s a photo here of Santa galloping through …
Jane: Yes, well that’s the one that go with that one. That is a really old one that one.
62 minutes 9 seconds
Simon: What’s that do you think?
Jane: I reckon that’s 1950s don’t you? Looking at the way the girls are all dressed and everything.
Simon: Everyone in their Sunday best as well.
Jane: Yes and look at everybody arriving. It was a big thing, Santa’s arrival. So, I just remember the one year the Grotto was down in the Basement at Union Street and once they’d got the Cross Street, you would be up on the First Floor. As you went up the main staircase at Cross Street, and opposite there they did the Grotto. There are various photos.
Simon: Right, so the one where it was the Union Street Packs …
Jane: Yes, Pack’s.
Simon: … people … how did they get led down into the Cellar if that was normally a work space for the …?
Jane: Oh I’ve no idea. I just know that one year it was like a Castle, and I remember they painted the whole staircase going down as if it was like old stone, because that paint just stayed on, and even in more recent years when it was converted into the flats, you could still see that grey paint work on the staircase (laughs) going down to the Basement because they went in the back door there I think and other years they would go upstairs where the Grotto was and other years maybe on the Ground Floor in the Children’s Department, I’m not sure.
Simon: Right, and do you think … I’ll put a photo next to it but that queue was to see Santa do you think?
Jane: I expect … let’s have a look.
Simon: There are lots of people there.
Jane: Oh Santa arriving, yes, all the children waiting Santa’s arrival and then to go and see him, yeah. That’s got to be 1950s the way the girls are dressed in their coats and hats aren’t they?
Simon: And who was the Santas?
Jane: I’ve no idea. Margaret, who I mentioned, her father was Santa for a number of years and but the others I don’t remember.
Simon: And when you said the one on Cross Street it was up the stairs and …
Jane: Opposite as you went up to the top of the stairs. They made it in there, they made the Grotto in there.
Simon: So, that was after … what was the name of that suite that you mentioned?
64 minutes 2 seconds
Jane: Oh the room the other side was the Marwood Room.
Simon: Marwood, so that was gone by then.
Jane: Well no, that was still there. That part of the business was there because that was there when my aunt was there. That was the Bridal Department.
Simon: Ok.
Jane: Yep, all the brides were in that top … hats and things in that top bit at the top of the stairs and then to the left was the Bridal bit.
Simon: Ok.
Jane: So, I think they put the Grotto in the back against the window there.
Simon: With the one that was at the top of Union Street …
Jane: Yes, Pack’s.
Simon: … what were the circumstances where that on didn’t function as a business anymore?
Jane: Well, that was when the business Pack and Culliford closed in 1988. That’s when it was all …
Simon: So, that was open at the same time as … until the Cross Street one was …
Jane: The Cross Street one was ’74 to ’88 as Pack and Cullifords and then my aunt carried on as Elizabeth Pack.
Simon: And what made it stop in ’88 then?
Jane: I think it was the times, business changing, everybody getting older. It was the sensible time to retire.
Simon: Yeah. And so then, I didn’t realise that the Union Street and the Cross Street one were open at the same time, the whole way to the end.
Jane: Yes.
Simon: Ok. So that’s quite … I mean from all of this amazing expansion to the point of just saying, “Right, ok, times done now, we’re going to …”
Jane: Yes, absolutely, better to go out at the top.
Simon: Hard to step away from, having been involved in all of those things I would have thought.
Jane: Absolutely, yes. That’s why my aunt carried on. There’s that very nice interview with her in The ‘Island Life’ magazine. You’ve seen it, it’s a nice synopsis of her career and everything.
Simon: So, was that something you were conscious of, ’88 I mean it feels like last week really doesn’t it but was it something you were conscious of … I don’t know is the right word a deflation within the family of …
Jane: Well, times change and people … yes it was just the right time. My granny had died several years before that so yes, I suppose it was a natural ending really.
Simon: So, nothing seen within the family of “Oh my goodness, this is such a change for us.”
Jane: Well, it was a change but yes, my aunt was happy, she wanted to … she was very happy to carry on, on her own and yeah.
66 minutes 22 seconds
Simon: So, she then maintained the one in Cross Street.
Jane: Yes she ran Cross Street as Elizabeth Pack, yes and did the Fashions and the Bridal Wear.
Simon: And that was ’88.
Jane: That was from ’88 through to … she died in 2016 and Tim finally closed the business in 2018.
Simon: Ok. I mean conversely the idea of the business closing, what was it like to be connected to the family that owned this … I mean let’s not beat around the bush, famous within the Island Department Store?
Jane: Yes, well it was just what we knew, isn’t it? What you grow up with, that was family life for us and we saw that we were very close to my uncle, my aunt and everybody was in the family and involved in the business and we saw a lot of them, absolutely, yeah.
Simon: Did people treat you in a different way of (whispers) ‘oh you know who she’s connected to’
Jane: No, no, no, not at all, no.
Simon: So, there was no prestige connected to it?
Jane: Well I suppose it … not that you were aware of, no, it was just the family …. It was what you knew from being in the family business.
Simon: Ok.
Jane: I mean my parents weren’t Doctors and Dentists which … Surgeons which has always had much more (laughs) prestige hasn’t it?
Simon: Ok. Yeah. It just seems to be … it’s almost like you’re given an entry to a sort of wonderland. Not just related to the Santa side but this idea that you could go and explore around the shop. It just seems like … but as you say it was natural.
68 minutes 3 seconds
Jane: We respected it and everything absolutely. There was never any parties held there or anything like that. Birthday parties were always very much at home (laughs). But no, it was just something … that was life.
Simon: Yeah, and it’s not something that … I mean when you’re living through it, it just seems natural. Have you reflected on it and seen it in a different way?
Jane: I just think we were lucky really probably, yeah. We were lucky we lived on the Island then I think because it was quieter and it was very nice. A very nice place to be to grow up. A lot of people I know wanted to go off. I mean I went off, I worked away for a time and then I came back, which I think people do as Islanders (laughs). We always escape and then we come back again, but there we go.
Simon: You mentioned a list of people that used to work there. Now we’ve run through some Coffee Bean people. Do you remember some other ones?
Jane: Some of the names, yes, I’ve tried to do some names, maybe not for the recording but I can give you the names.
Simon: Oh, ok, well if it’s not for the recording that’s ..
Jane: I think it’s probably easier for me to … I haven’t got hundreds of names because I don’t remember them all, but I do remember a few, so are we nearly there?
Simon: What were the … what were one thing sort of any odd bits that you remember? Funny stories or …?
Jane: Oh, no I suppose playing around after the Carnival we were allowed to do that. The excitement of seeing Father Christmas arrive because we would go down and look at that. Watching the Carnival. I don’t think any particularly odd or funny, nothing that comes to me for now, no.
Simon: Ok, and on the wedding side, that’s another part that people are ..
Jane: Oh the brides, yes, it was always a big … yes and my aunt particularly specialised in all the weddings from the late ‘80s through to …
70 minutes 11 seconds
Simon: A huge responsibility.
Jane: Yes, bridesmaids and all the dresses and all bits and bobs that she did, yes, but I can’t … well Tim is the one to talk to about that really.
Simon: Ok, I mean you just sort of watched through the doorway of things happening.
Jane: Yes, I wasn’t involved in it, I wasn’t involved at all, neither was mummy so no.
Simon: Ok. Is there anything that we haven’t covered that we should have done?
Jane: I don’t think so. We’ve done the history from what I recall, the business coming through to Ryde, the expansion, the different businesses. Yes, it being part of your life really.
Simon: Ok. Let me have a quick flip through these photos and see … they’re great pictures. These photos with the rounded corners as well. It’s not something you see anymore is it?
Jane: No. Those are quite fun, those Father Christmas ones.
Simon: Oh right, the plant shop ‘Green Fingers’ …
Jane: Green Fingers, yes.
Simon: That was just sort of well, we’re not selling flowers so why don’t we sell some flowers? (laughs).
Jane: It’s something my mother had always wanted to do. She always loved plants and things and she thought when they were there, they had the space for it and so they set it up and they did it for a few years, I’m not sure how long and then maybe I suppose other priorities came up. This is one old photo we found that I’ve no idea where that came from, but we think it could be a Parade post war or something but it shows the old Pack’s windows. That would have been before they were through in Ryde I’m sure but look, they’ve got DL plates.
Simon: That’s when the Theatre was still there I guess.
Jane: Yes, and it’s an old fire engine going past so whether it was late or mid-1940s but that’s quite interesting the Ryde history because it just shows the corner of the Pack’s window there.
Simon: Um.
Jane: That’s long before they were at that premises but it’s Ryde history. Where that came from I’ve no idea but it’s quite interesting, that one.
Simon: If I could take a picture of that one.
Jane: Yeah do, absolutely.
Simon: Ok. Is there anything you had notes of people’s names but we can do that after the recording.
Jane: Yes, absolutely.
Simon: Any other notes?
Jane: No I don’t think so (laughs).
Simon: Thank you very much for your time.
Jane: Ok, thank you Simon.
Simon: Much appreciated.
Jane: Ok, then, thanks.
Interview ends.
72 minutes 34 seconds